Author Topic: Fr. Becks Sermon on Modesty, St Marys, KS. Jul 10 2016. (Read 9255 times)

TKonkel · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:47:08 PM »

Quote from: apollo

On July 10 2016, Sunday, in St. Marys, KS, Fr Beck said in a sermon (at all Masses) the following which I will summarize.

1. Female modesty is an INTERNAL thing which affects the external appearance.

2. It's the parent's responsibility to instill the INTERNAL virtue of modesty in girls.

3. I'm sorry that you may feel we are beating you with a stick about this issue.
[I have not seen anyone doing that and the modesty gets worse every year. A nun
and another priest are upset about it.]

4. It's NOT the priest's responsibility to tell a girl or woman that her sleeve is too
short of that her hemline is too high.

So if a woman is immodestly dressed in the chapel, then that is just too bad for the
men and boys.

I also heard from another person that Fr. Rostand, the previous US district superior,
told the priests not to enforce modesty.

So bottom line, it's better not to offend any woman and have her attend Mass, than
to make a safe and pure place for people to attend Mass.

Is this adapting to the modern world or not ?

More evidence of the liberalization of the SSPX ?

I once saw Bishop Williamson refuse to give Holy Communion to a woman who
was wearing a sleeveless dress.

TKonkel · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2016, 10:01:21 PM »

I heard the sermon. When Fr. Beck said "it's not the priests' job to enforce modesty" it was in a very specific context. He was addressing the fathers of families in the parish and pointing out that THEY have a responsibility to make sure that the ladies of their family are dressing appropriately. A father of a family cannot try to pass this responsibility off on the priests, "it's not their responsibility." He even said during the sermon, "Of course if someone is coming to Mass dressed inappropriately the priest might need to say something." To try to pretend that the message of the sermon amounted to saying, "To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately; it's not the priests responsibility" is more than unfair. It is dishonest.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2016, 10:42:52 PM »

Thank you, TK, for the additional point of view.

mw2016 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2016, 01:54:15 AM »

Quote from: Zeitun

Quote from: mw2016

It's a pendulum that has swung too far in the opposite direction in 15 years: we went from Birkenstock sandals with socks to slutty heels.

Some husbands like the slutty shoe look.

Not at Mass, I hope!

MMagdala · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2016, 02:28:21 AM »

Quote from: TK

I heard the sermon. When Fr. Beck said "it's not the priests' job to enforce modesty" it was in a very specific context. He was addressing the fathers of families in the parish and pointing out that THEY have a responsibility to make sure that the ladies of their family are dressing appropriately. A father of a family cannot try to pass this responsibility off on the priests, "it's not their responsibility." He even said during the sermon, "Of course if someone is coming to Mass dressed inappropriately the priest might need to say something." To try to pretend that the message of the sermon amounted to saying, "To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately; it's not the priests responsibility" is more than unfair. It is dishonest.

Good point about the fathers' responsibility. However, in our parish some young women come alone, having no husband (or Catholic or trad husband), and, as someone else mentioned, those are often visitors, wearing quite the get-up. In those cases, we women take them aside and politely redirect them. I recently brought a student of mine and instructed her beforehand what she must wear. (She complied, overall. When she first objected, saying that she "didn't have clothes like that," I told her, "find them." She managed to borrow modest clothes. Yes, kind of sad that they didn't exist within her own wardrobe.)

Immodestly dressed women simply stand out in our parish and so tend to feel uncomfortable. It's an act of charity on the part of others to gently get such women to conform, and mostly the comments are well-received because they're offered in a helpful spirit. (It's not always easy for us to find contemporary clothes to wear that don't show cleavage and thighs, etc.)

TKGS · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2016, 06:05:00 AM »

Interesting comments about what the priest's job is. If the father isn't doing his job, is it the priest's job to correct the father? When the SSPX took over the chapel that I used to attend, the priests made it clear to the parishioners that enforcing a "dress code" was not their responsibility and that they should bring any concerns to the priest and not try to correct the situation themselves.

The SSPX gives mixed signals.

Zeitun · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2016, 07:03:46 AM »

Quote from: MMagdala

Immodestly dressed women simply stand out in our parish and so tend to feel uncomfortable. It's an act of charity on the part of others to gently get such women to conform, and mostly the comments are well-received because they're offered in a helpful spirit. (It's not always easy for us to find contemporary clothes to wear that don't show cleavage and thighs, etc.)

I do agree. Sadly, sometimes the ones doing the "correcting" are not dressed modestly themselves. I've learned over the years that modesty is subjective.

The biggest problem I see among ladies today at Mass is too tight rather than revealing. Even mature women who are grandmothers are wearing clothing that reveals the outlines of their undergarments. And many fabrics today are very sheer and there is no slip.

Sorry for TMI.

apollo · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2016, 09:02:18 AM »

Quote from: TK

I heard the sermon. When Fr. Beck said "it's not the priests' job to enforce modesty" it was in a very specific context. He was addressing the fathers of families in the parish and pointing out that THEY have a responsibility to make sure that the ladies of their family are dressing appropriately. A father of a family cannot try to pass this responsibility off on the priests, "it's not their responsibility." He even said during the sermon, "Of course if someone is coming to Mass dressed inappropriately the priest might need to say something." To try to pretend that the message of the sermon amounted to saying, "To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately; it's not the priests responsibility" is more than unfair. It is dishonest.

To clarify.
"To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately."
were my words, not Fr. Beck's.

I disagree about whose responsibility it is, in the chapel.
I have never in 16 years seen a priest at the entrance of the chapel watching people
entering the chapel, watching for immodestly dressed women.

I have seen whole families, with the father present, and the girls looked like they had
just come out of a fashion show, 4 inch high heels, tight dresses, lots of makeup and
nobody said anything. It has happened several times with this family and each time
the priest gives communion to the girls (no problem).

This is not the kind of sermon that we would have heard 8 or 10 years ago.

I posted this because another priest, a nun and a friend of mine are all saying that
it's a problem and Fr. Beck only sees it as an internal problem within the woman.

I'm sorry to say that when a woman is in a public place her appearance is very
external.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2016, 09:23:20 AM »

Quote from: Zeitun

Women always dress to please their husbands. Some husbands like the slutty shoe look.

Not true. Women (married) usually dress in order to compete with and impress other women. Unmarried women are trying to catch the eye of some man.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2016, 09:26:01 AM »

As someone else cited here, Canon Law says otherwise; it is indeed the priest's responsibility. Of course, it's awkward for a priest to point out to a woman that her skirt is too short or if her breasts are hanging out. "Why are you looking?" is the usual slutty retort. But a priest could delegate this responsibility to some respected older ladies in the chapel.

TKonkel · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2016, 10:16:49 AM »

Quote from: apollo

Quote from: TK
I heard the sermon. When Fr. Beck said "it's not the priests' job to enforce modesty" it was in a very specific context. He was addressing the fathers of families in the parish and pointing out that THEY have a responsibility to make sure that the ladies of their family are dressing appropriately. A father of a family cannot try to pass this responsibility off on the priests, "it's not their responsibility." He even said during the sermon, "Of course if someone is coming to Mass dressed inappropriately the priest might need to say something." To try to pretend that the message of the sermon amounted to saying, "To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately; it's not the priests responsibility" is more than unfair. It is dishonest.

To clarify.
"To bad for the men and boys of the parish if girls are coming to Mass dressed inappropriately."
were my words, not Fr. Beck's.

I disagree about whose responsibility it is, in the chapel.
I have never in 16 years seen a priest at the entrance of the chapel watching people
entering the chapel, watching for immodestly dressed women.

I have seen whole families, with the father present, and the girls looked like they had
just come out of a fashion show, 4 inch high heels, tight dresses, lots of makeup and
nobody said anything. It has happened several times with this family and each time
the priest gives communion to the girls (no problem).

This is not the kind of sermon that we would have heard 8 or 10 years ago.

I posted this because another priest, a nun and a friend of mine are all saying that
it's a problem and Fr. Beck only sees it as an internal problem within the woman.

I'm sorry to say that when a woman is in a public place her appearance is very
external.

I am not sure that the formatting on this will come out right-- I have not fully figured out how to reply to specific posts with quotes etc. Anyhow. You say "Fr. Beck only sees it [immodesty] as an internal problem." That is not true. He said that the root of the external is internal. He mentioned those also who try to just barely "toe the line" with regard to modesty. His point is that the root of external modesty is an internal disposition for purity, a spirit that intends to imitate our Lady rather than one that attempts to do as little as possible in order to conform to the external rule. And he DID also give the external requirements for modest dress, so he is not discounting the fact that there are external norms. His point was that those externals stem from an internal disposition which we need to foster. How anyone could disagree with this is beyond me.
And again, his point regarding the priests and their role was not to say that they have no role to play in making sure that those of the parish are dressing modestly (obviously not--he was giving a sermon on it); his point was to call fathers of families to fulfill their responsibility as well. Too many fathers think that they have done their Catholic duty by getting the family to Mass and perhaps sticking the children in school. He was pointing out that their responsibility goes well beyond this and that they cannot abdicate their responsibility to the priest.
"I disagree about whose responsibility it is, in the chapel." He mentioned precisely that the priest has a special role to play regarding immodesty when it comes to the chapel (did we hear the same sermon?) but his overall point was that there is also a responsibility to foster this at home and that the fathers of families have this responsibility. If young girls are showing up to Mass this way, first and foremost, something is not right at home. Dad should have not allowed them into the car.

apollo · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2016, 10:43:32 AM »

Like I said, I don't see anybody doing anything about the immodesty,
so I'll just have to wait until the father or mother is able to change the
girls internal state. In the meantime, I will confess:

"Bless me father Beck for I have sinned. I placed myself in an occasion of sin
by attending Mass on Sunday".

MMagdala · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2016, 10:44:30 AM »

Our priest has spoken generally about dress from the pulpit. However, he did it in the context of everyone's dress, which I fully agree with. (There is very little excuse on a Sunday -- not a workday -- for men coming to Mass dressed as sloppily and irreverently as some of them do, which means jeans, t-shirts, athletic shoes for a man without a medical/therapeutic need for special shoes. A healthy man of 30 deliberately donning gym shorts, and bringing along children wearing the same attire is completely failing in his fatherly responsibility, by example and by instruction.)

So what the priest said was that if we consider what we are doing and celebrating and professing when we come to Mass, we will not be able to dress as if something else is taking place. And except for the few unfortunate exceptions on the part of those men, above, fathers who bring their families are generally doing a very good job monitoring, because none of their wives and daughters are dressing inappropriately. Again, it's the women coming singly that can be problematic, but the priest does not correct them, we women do -- not officially or by being "deputized" to do that, but informally and privately, usually in a positive ("Helpful") spirit, while empathizing with them about the difficulty of dressing modestly in contemporary times. (Many of us have to modify our wardrobes in some way, such as layering our tops, wearing sweaters, shawls, what-have-you, even layering skirts sometimes.)

A few women wear pants. The rest of us women never get that, because we know that actually it is easier to wear skirts than pants, despite the mythology of the reverse. One has to worry much more about fit with pants than with skirts. The skirt just has to vaguely fit in the waist and not be too revealing in the behind or in the fabric; you put it on and you don't worry about it. End of story.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2016, 10:45:44 AM »

The 'full story' of the sermon sounds balanced and practical by the priest. The fathers are supposed to clear all this immodesty up at home and many don't (I know firsthand). Usually the Dads leave it to the mothers to battle with their daughters, which never works because females trying to correct females is a disaster. Men are the best judge of immodesty and should be the ones correcting it.

apollo · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2016, 12:26:22 PM »

Except that if it's not enforced in the chapel it's not a practical solution,
because it continues to happen. This is what I've seen firsthand.

I guess Charles Manson should have been allowed to remain in the
general public until he somehow got straightened out internally.