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Author Topic: Found on T.I.A. Website, Collection of Archbishop's sermons not welcome to laity  (Read 4892 times)

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Offline cosmas

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Dear TIA, 

As you may know, Bishop Fellay and Fr. Schmidberger filed a lawsuit in Belgium against Fr. Schoonbroodt, who posted on his website the collection of sermons of Archbishop Lefebvre. Fr. Schoonbroodt had received from the Lefebvre family permission to disseminate those docuмents. Bishop Fellay and Fr. Schmidberger allege SSPX has full civil rights over the intellectual inheritance of the late Prelate. 

On this topic, Fr. Basilio Meramo, who was expelled from the SSPX for his non-acceptance of its merge with the progressivist Rome, recently made the statements that I copied below. I hope you can post this news to inform your readers. 

     Thank you, 

     T.R. 

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“I wonder what may be the right of property that Bishop Fellay arrogantly pretends to exclusively have over the sermons of Archbishop Lefebvre. Neither he nor SSPX is his biological heir. If the Superior General or anyone else in SSPX possesses a testament in his favor, he has to show it. Even if such were the case, his prerogatives exist only in order to favor the propagation and dissemination of the Archbishop's testimony, and not to censure and forbid it, and allow it to fall into oblivion. 

“The sermons and everything else that Archbishop Lefebvre said are the patrimony of the Church and its only proprietor is Jesus Christ. 

“To prevent the faithful from having access to Archbishop Lefebvre’s denunciations demonstrates how the Superiors responsible for this censure are compromised with the Vatican Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.“ 

Fr. Basilio Méramo
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Offline Markus

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This is very troubling. What would motivate the SSPX to suppress Lefebvre's sermons? Is it because the sermons were "too extreme"? Could it be that the sermons were too elementary that they would make Lefebvre appear unlearned? (I have heard it said Lefebvre's sermons were not very profound) -- A friend made an observation to me: whereas the SSPX tries to suppress anything of their founder that would be unfavorable to the Vatican or the general public, the TFP has not tried to hide anything about its founder, Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira. His "sermons" and articles are readily available on the Internet (TIA Website being one of many) in several languages, even without disclaimers. 

At any rate, Fr. Schoonbroodt is correct to make the sermons available to the public, whatsoever be their content.

I think Fr. Schoonbroodt should upload the sermons to a Website where it won't be at risk of being taken down. I imagine Matthew would know some good resources here.

My understanding of copyright as someone who lives in the United States is: you can upload whatever you like onto the Internet, even copyrighted material, as long as you don't profit from it monetarily and post a "Fair Use" disclaimer. If Fr. Schoonbroodt sent the files to an American and had an American upload it, perhaps that would resolve the problem.


Offline Meg

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What TIA/Guimaraes doesn't ever say is that he has always been against the SSPX, and Archbishop Lefebvre. It's dishonest to not include that. He quite happily publishes anything against the SSPX; but not to show how the Neo-SSPX is wrong (as the Resistance does). He's always believed that the SSPX has been wrong, and that his deceased cult-leader was always right (Plinio)
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

Offline hollingsworth

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I think Fr. Schoonbroodt should upload the sermons to a Website where it won't be at risk of being taken down. I imagine Matthew would know some good resources here.

These are the 219 unpublished sermons of ABL, the ones whose publication Fellay suppressed through the courts?  If so, I would love nothing better than to see them made available to the public. Their contents, or at least some of their contents, are at odds with the the present Menzingen agenda.  They make Fellay & Co. very nervous.  This is pretty obvious.  Please bring them on!

Offline X

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This is very troubling. What would motivate the SSPX to suppress Lefebvre's sermons? Is it because the sermons were "too extreme"? Could it be that the sermons were too elementary that they would make Lefebvre appear unlearned? (I have heard it said Lefebvre's sermons were not very profound) -- A friend made an observation to me: whereas the SSPX tries to suppress anything of their founder that would be unfavorable to the Vatican or the general public, the TFP has not tried to hide anything about its founder, Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira. His "sermons" and articles are readily available on the Internet (TIA Website being one of many) in several languages, even without disclaimers.

At any rate, Fr. Schoonbroodt is correct to make the sermons available to the public, whatsoever be their content.

I think Fr. Schoonbroodt should upload the sermons to a Website where it won't be at risk of being taken down. I imagine Matthew would know some good resources here.

My understanding of copyright as someone who lives in the United States is: you can upload whatever you like onto the Internet, even copyrighted material, as long as you don't profit from it monetarily and post a "Fair Use" disclaimer. If Fr. Schoonbroodt sent the files to an American and had an American upload it, perhaps that would resolve the problem.

Unfortunately, Fair Use as a defense to copywrite infringement in the US is a bit more complicated than that:

Not only do Fair Use laws and precedent vary from state to state, but depending on the locale of the plaintiff and defendant, the case would likely end up in federal court (ie., in cases where both parties are from different states, or countries, venue is usually the federal courts).

Moreover, there are a whole string of factors judges assess in determining whether the use of copywrited material is “fair” (eg., is it transformational; what percent of the material has been reproduced; it the use commercial or educational; etc).

Here is a good article which discusses:
https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

Normally, the judge plays a balancing game: If more factors are in favor of the plaintiff, an infringement action has a good chance of prevailing, and vice-versa.  But even in such cases, the outcome will not be certain.

If an infringement suit is brought, a defendant will need to show more criteria in his favor than the plaintiff can.

As regards the use of unauthorized copywrited material, one would be well advised to perform an assessment of Fair Use criteria in advance (better still, gain the permission of the copywrite holder, or failing that, seek the legal advice of a copywrite attorney).

An entirely separate defense against infringement actions in some cases are SLAPP laws (SLAPP is an acronym for “Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation”).

SLAPP laws are designed to combat plaintiffs from stifling public conversation by threatening or instituting lawsuits asameans of intimidating opponents into silence, in matters of public interest.

Which is all to say that if anyone was considering publicly publishing materials for which the SSPX has already demonstrated a resolve to litigate (not only in this matter, but also against Avrille a few years ago), they had better get a lawyer.

It would be a very stupid (and expensive) move.

NB: I am not an attorney, and this is not legal advice.


Offline cosmas

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Fr. Schoonbroodt died in 2012, R.I.P.

Offline Meg

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Unfortunately, Fair Use as a defense to copywrite infringement in the US is a bit more complicated than that:

Not only do Fair Use laws and precedent vary from state to state, but depending on the locale of the plaintiff and defendant, the case would likely end up in federal court (ie., in cases where both parties are from different states, or countries, venue is usually the federal courts).

Moreover, there are a whole string of factors judges assess in determining whether the use of copywrited material is “fair” (eg., is it transformational; what percent of the material has been reproduced; it the use commercial or educational; etc).

Here is a good article which discusses:
https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

Normally, the judge plays a balancing game: If more factors are in favor of the plaintiff, an infringement action has a good chance of prevailing, and vice-versa.  But even in such cases, the outcome will not be certain.

If an infringement suit is brought, a defendant will need to show more criteria in his favor than the plaintiff can.

As regards the use of unauthorized copywrited material, one would be well advised to perform an assessment of Fair Use criteria in advance (better still, gain the permission of the copywrite holder, or failing that, seek the legal advice of a copywrite attorney).

An entirely separate defense against infringement actions in some cases are SLAPP laws (SLAPP is an acronym for “Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation”).

SLAPP laws are designed to combat plaintiffs from stifling public conversation by threatening or instituting lawsuits asameans of intimidating opponents into silence, in matters of public interest.

Which is all to say that if anyone was considering publicly publishing materials for which the SSPX has already demonstrated a resolve to litigate (not only in this matter, but also against Avrille a few years ago), they had better get a lawyer.

It would be a very stupid (and expensive) move.

NB: I am not an attorney, and this is not legal advice.

Probably good advice, though it would be good to read the sermons. But there is still ample evidence which Bp. Fellay has not been able to suppress, regarding the stance of Archbishop Lefebvre.
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

Offline X

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Probably good advice, though it would be good to read the sermons. But there is still ample evidence which Bp. Fellay has not been able to suppress, regarding the stance of Archbishop Lefebvre.

It won’t stay suppressed for ever.  It is in the custody of many Resistance hands.  I suspect it is one deathbed maneuver from hitting the internet, and then there will be nobody to sue.

Sometimes little bits escape.

For example, any time you have seen something titled “COSPEC,” it has come from this collection (COSPEC is how the Spiritual Conferences - Ecône are archived within the collection).

The collection is much, much more than just Archbishop Lefebvre’s sermons!


Offline Markus

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Two points -

1) Meg, Dr. Plinio and TFP were never against the SSPX. As you know, it was Archbishop Mayer who broke with TFP over his Rifan/Fedeli-induced perception that it was a "heretical sect". As an anecdotal aside, I know at least one TFP member who attends SSPX mass and tries to reconcile TFP and SSPX on a local level. But to say Dr. Plinio or TFP enacted the separation is not correct.

2) Once again, I don't see why someone can't just upload the sermons on some Website where they can't be taken down. There are sites hosted in foreign countries with low-level copyright laws. Granted I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I know plenty of them exist. To post these sermons would be an act of justice, to Lefebvre, and also the Church.

Offline hollingsworth

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X: It won’t stay suppressed for ever.
 Do you mean ‘they,’ as in sermons?

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X: It is in the custody of many Resistance hands.  I suspect it is one deathbed maneuver from hitting the internet, and then there will be nobody to sue.

So, it (they) are in your hands, perhaps? You, mystery X, have a copy of them? “(m)any Resistance hands”have access to them, you say. I can’t help but speculate, X, that you may know were all the bodies are buried. Does H.E. have these sermons in his possession?


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X: Sometimes little bits escape.

Indeed? Give us a hint. Where can we find some “little bits” online? None of these “little bits,” thus far, have escaped to me, unless I have read them elsewhere, and was ignorant of their source.


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X: For example, any time you have seen something titled “COSPEC,” it has come from this collection (COSPEC is how the Spiritual Conferences - Ecône are archived within the collection).

Personally, I don’t recall seeing anything titled “COSPEC.” How would any of the unwashed gain access to this collection? Is COSPEC an acronym familiar only to sspx higher ups? What does it mean?

 
COSPEC, you say, is much, much more than just Archbishop Lefebvre’s sermons! Hmmm! I guess we can only hope that one of the Resistance members, in possession of the sermons, and “much, much more,” is near death, and may soon release them publicly. You can’t sue a dead man, you’re right.

Offline X

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Do you mean ‘they,’ as in sermons?

So, it (they) are in your hands, perhaps? You, mystery X, have a copy of them? “(m)any Resistance hands”have access to them, you say. I can’t help but speculate, X, that you may know were all the bodies are buried. Does H.E. have these sermons in his possession?


Indeed? Give us a hint. Where can we find some “little bits” online? None of these “little bits,” thus far, have escaped to me, unless I have read them elsewhere, and was ignorant of their source.


Personally, I don’t recall seeing anything titled “COSPEC.” How would any of the unwashed gain access to this collection? Is COSPEC an acronym familiar only to sspx higher ups? What does it mean?

 
COSPEC, you say, is much, much more than just Archbishop Lefebvre’s sermons! Hmmm! I guess we can only hope that one of the Resistance members, in possession of the sermons, and “much, much more,” is near death, and may soon release them publicly. You can’t sue a dead man, you’re right.

Greetings Mr. Hollingsworth-

1) By "it," I mean the collection (which is quite a bit more than just sermons).

2) Some questions are better left unanswered.

3) Here's an example of a little COSPEC jailbreak (PS: Nobody will be able to trace the poster):

4) COSPEC = Conférence Spirituelle Écône (i.e., Spiritual Conferences given in Econe).  I would start asking your Resistance priests how to find them.  If you are trusted, perhaps they will tell you.


Offline Markus

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Just post the sermons on a site that doesn't apply to copyrights...simple as.

Offline hollingsworth

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X: 2) Some questions are better left unanswered.
Oh really? Questions about the sermons, and “much, much more” have gone unanswered for years. And I would suggest that they need to be answered as quickly as possible, in a timely fashion. Maybe some of your posts, X, are better left unposted.

The ABL video you posted is useless to me. I don’t speak French. Maybe one of the CI members, who knows French, would endeavor to translate the talk.

 

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X: I would start asking your Resistance priests how to find them.  If you are trusted, perhaps they will tell you.

What Resistance priests? We don’t have much to do with any of them. What is more, we don’t count ourselves as being members of any “Resistance.”

“If you are trusted,” you write. Trusted to say or do what, or not to do or say what, X?

Offline X

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Just post the sermons on a site that doesn't apply to copyrights...simple as.

You are a bit confused about the applicability of laws:

Whomever would upload the sermons would be subject to prosecution/litigation for infringement.

Usually, there are "footprints" which lead back to the poster, and therefore his exposure to legal retaliation.

There are certain technologies which can hide those footprints, but they are a bit..."incongruent" with the priestly state, inasmuch as they imply defects in courage, principle, and integrity, and for that reason, all Resistance clergy in possession of the collection refuse to go that route, preferring to disseminate the contents only to the MOST trustworthy of laymen for safekeeping and posterity.

For now, you will have to take consolation in the fact that this dissemination is so widespread, Menzingen can never hope to recover sole ownership.

A dying man, or one facing bankruptcy, or just one who no longer cares what happens...one way or the other, it will all eventually come out.

God wills it.

Offline X

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Oh really? Questions about the sermons, and “much, much more” have gone unanswered for years. And I would suggest that they need to be answered as quickly as possible, in a timely fashion. Maybe some of your posts, X, are better left unposted.

The ABL video you posted is useless to me. I don’t speak French. Maybe one of the CI members, who knows French, would endeavor to translate the talk.

 

What Resistance priests? We don’t have much to do with any of them. What is more, we don’t count ourselves as being members of any “Resistance.”

“If you are trusted,” you write. Trusted to say or do what, or not to do or say what, X?

Dear Mr. Hollingsworth-

I have noticed for some time that you have taken a rather antagonistic posture towards what I write.

May I ask what it is about me or my posts you find objectionable?

I get the impression you view me as not entirely on your side, whereas I had thought the opposite.

When you say you don't have much to do with the Resistance, I would gather that is the reason you do not have access to the Collection.

PS: I did not post the COSPEC blurb I cited above. I only directed you to it.