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Author Topic: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded  (Read 2161 times)

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Offline Matthew

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If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
« on: November 14, 2021, 09:30:11 AM »
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  • I know this is all hypothetical -- I realize that God prepared +ABL for the mission His Divine Providence had planned for him, which was from the 60's at Vatican II itself until his death in 1991.

    But indulge me for a moment --

    Things are worse than they have ever been, INCLUDING the past 50 years of Crisis.

    With regards to the Crisis in the Church and Tradition, in most ways, the 70's and 80's were "the good old days" compared to today.

    Just look at the first 10 years of the SSPX, vs. the first 10 years of the Resistance -- you'll see what I mean. SAME DOCTRINAL POSITION. But +ABL was living on EASY MODE compared to Bishop Williamson and the other Resistance bishops.

    The only single advantage -- a lifejacket, if you will -- is the existence of the Internet now. Which is both a blessing and a curse, of course. Ebay makes it easy to get equipment for new chapels -- but it also means that closing churches will sell stuff on eBay now instead of donating it to a poor chapel. The Internet makes it easy to advertise and find new parishioners -- but you also get errors and proselytizing from rival groups, taking away parishioners from you. So the Internet giveth, and the Internet taketh away -- as it were.

    But here's the clincher:

    Imagine if +ABL had to compete with an entrenched FSSP with 550 priests and hundreds of chapels, offering the "Latin Mass" in union with Rome, usually less than 1 hour from most people? The SSPX would never have taken off.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #1 on: November 14, 2021, 10:54:02 AM »
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  • Yes. True. There would be no SSPX. 
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #2 on: November 14, 2021, 04:44:20 PM »
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  • Sure, but the fact is there would be no FSSP, in fact no Indultarian/Motarian movement at all were it not for +Lefebvre.  With a handful of independent pre-V2-ordained  priests passing away now, the Tridentine Mass would have been all but exstinct. 

    All these Motarians who are so critical of the SSPX "schism" would not exist, and they would not have what they have, were it not for the "disobedience" of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #3 on: November 14, 2021, 05:01:34 PM »
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  • Yes, there are obviously differences in the world compared to 1970, 1988, or 2021. 

    But the primary reasons for the Resistance’s “failure to launch” are the direct result of Bishop Williamson’s policies, once he joined the pre-existing Resistance, and changed its raison d’etre.

    That’s not a criticism, but a simple historical assessment.

    The Resistance today is exactly the way His Lordship wanted it.

    Obviously, I disagree with the OP premise that Lefebvre would not have succeeded today (even the compromised SSPX has almost 200 seminarians), and if Vigano were 10-15 years younger, and founded a seminary staffed with other Resistance-minded staff, that seminary would blow up.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #4 on: November 14, 2021, 09:51:41 PM »
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  • But the primary reasons for the Resistance’s “failure to launch” are the direct result of Bishop Williamson’s policies, once he joined the pre-existing Resistance, and changed its raison d’etre.

    That’s not a criticism, but a simple historical assessment.

    The Resistance today is exactly the way His Lordship wanted it.

    Obviously, I disagree with the OP premise that Lefebvre would not have succeeded today

    It's too soon to judge through the lens of history. We're very much still living through this thing. It's far from over. WAY too soon to call winners and losers.

    If anything, I'd have to call +W the winner because he was prepared -- and preparing us -- for something like the COVID totalitarian lockdowns. It's harder to shut down Mass and the Sacraments when you're the SSPX, than when you're "a loose network of independent priests" that arranges Mass by word of mouth only. And frankly, I think the next 10 years will look a lot more like 2020, than they will look like any previous year. 2020 is a taste of things to come. 

    There is a prominent cleric who felt as you did: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer. We all know how THAT ended up. He wanted SSPX II so bad he could taste it. He even attempted to get himself consecrated by a random Thuc bishop. Is his cult flourishing? I don't think so. Ordaining (even worse: "ordaining") unfit, untrained, or poorly trained men to the priesthood CAN'T end well. That much we CAN conclude from long-ago history.

    The main limiting factor in the Resistance is the priest shortage. There haven't been any defections from the SSPX in coon's years, especially since the Neo-SSPX learned their lessons from Vatican II -- and 2012 -- and transferred Fr. Rostand and totally changed tactics. "No more persecutions. No more martyrs. No more defections" was the order of the day.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #5 on: November 14, 2021, 09:56:59 PM »
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  • Sure, but the fact is there would be no FSSP, in fact no Indultarian/Motarian movement at all were it not for +Lefebvre.  With a handful of independent pre-V2-ordained  priests passing away now, the Tridentine Mass would have been all but exstinct.

    All these Motarians who are so critical of the SSPX "schism" would not exist, and they would not have what they have, were it not for the "disobedience" of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    I agree -- but I would retort that you're getting "lost in the example". Omnis comparatio claudicat...

    All comparisons limp, except in the point of comparison.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #6 on: November 14, 2021, 10:04:39 PM »
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  • Mr. McFarland wrote in and said,


    Quote
    ABL's living an EASY MODE compared to +Williamson?  Have you read +Tissier's biography?  If so, could you look me in the eye and say that ABL EVER lived an EASY MODE?


    I didn't say that +ABL was living life on easy mode, or that he had no sufferings in his life. I said he was on Easy Mode (as in a game) COMPARED TO BISHOP WILLIAMSON. Guess what? All those dry martyrdom points suffered by +ABL are also well-known to +W as well. But +W is dealing with an enemy who is diabolically clever enough to make no martyrs, to set up controlled opposition, and keep the people happy, lest they LEAVE and become SUPPORTERS of a resistance movement -- whether the Traditional Movement in the 70's or the Resistance in 2012 and after.

    A lot of lessons were learned after Vatican II. Setting up the Indult was a stroke of diabolical genius. You want to give the people an OUTLET for their desires for things traditional. You want to fulfill those needs, lest they leave and have them fulfilled completely and properly in the Traditional Movement. But then you can't control them. So you can't have that.

    +ABL was dealing with a ham-fisted opponent, a metaphorical bull in a china shop, who woke up countless Catholics to the Crisis and drove many into the waiting arms of Tradition. Having to choose between the SSPX Tridentine Mass and the banal, empty Novus Ordo -- that was a no-brainer for most. So after leaving behind the empty religion of man, they joined and supported the Traditional Movement with their time, their money, their labors. Groups like the SSPX benefited GREATLY from this.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #7 on: November 15, 2021, 04:07:16 AM »
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  • At this time, SSPX and independent chapels are overloaded with Catholics from indult and even the novus Ordo. 

    The chapel I went to last night was so crowded, that people couldn’t sit in pews. Huge line for confession too. 


    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #8 on: November 15, 2021, 04:26:52 AM »
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  • Yes. True. There would be no SSPX.
    If there had been Diocesan Latin Mass to go to.  Many Catholics in our area left the church after Vatican II.  The Diocesan Latin Masses do nothing to correct the mortal sins within their diocese.  The one I know is always raising money for the corrupt diocese when they shouldn’t get a cent.

    “Imagine if +ABL had to compete with an entrenched FSSP with 550 priests and hundreds of chapels, offering the "Latin Mass" in union with Rome, usually less than 1 hour from most people? The SSPX would never have taken off” 

    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #9 on: November 15, 2021, 05:12:49 AM »
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  • I know this is all hypothetical -- I realize that God prepared +ABL for the mission His Divine Providence had planned for him, which was from the 60's at Vatican II itself until his death in 1991.

    But indulge me for a moment --

    Things are worse than they have ever been, INCLUDING the past 50 years of Crisis.

    With regards to the Crisis in the Church and Tradition, in most ways, the 70's and 80's were "the good old days" compared to today.

    Just look at the first 10 years of the SSPX, vs. the first 10 years of the Resistance -- you'll see what I mean. SAME DOCTRINAL POSITION. But +ABL was living on EASY MODE compared to Bishop Williamson and the other Resistance bishops.

    The only single advantage -- a lifejacket, if you will -- is the existence of the Internet now. Which is both a blessing and a curse, of course. Ebay makes it easy to get equipment for new chapels -- but it also means that closing churches will sell stuff on eBay now instead of donating it to a poor chapel. The Internet makes it easy to advertise and find new parishioners -- but you also get errors and proselytizing from rival groups, taking away parishioners from you. So the Internet giveth, and the Internet taketh away -- as it were.

    But here's the clincher:

    Imagine if +ABL had to compete with an entrenched FSSP with 550 priests and hundreds of chapels, offering the "Latin Mass" in union with Rome, usually less than 1 hour from most people? The SSPX would never have taken off.
    Well said!

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #10 on: November 15, 2021, 06:13:21 AM »
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  • It's too soon to judge through the lens of history. We're very much still living through this thing. It's far from over. WAY too soon to call winners and losers.

    If anything, I'd have to call +W the winner because he was prepared -- and preparing us -- for something like the COVID totalitarian lockdowns. It's harder to shut down Mass and the Sacraments when you're the SSPX, than when you're "a loose network of independent priests" that arranges Mass by word of mouth only. And frankly, I think the next 10 years will look a lot more like 2020, than they will look like any previous year. 2020 is a taste of things to come.

    There is a prominent cleric who felt as you did: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer. We all know how THAT ended up. He wanted SSPX II so bad he could taste it. He even attempted to get himself consecrated by a random Thuc bishop. Is his cult flourishing? I don't think so. Ordaining (even worse: "ordaining") unfit, untrained, or poorly trained men to the priesthood CAN'T end well. That much we CAN conclude from long-ago history.

    The main limiting factor in the Resistance is the priest shortage. There haven't been any defections from the SSPX in coon's years, especially since the Neo-SSPX learned their lessons from Vatican II -- and 2012 -- and transferred Fr. Rostand and totally changed tactics. "No more persecutions. No more martyrs. No more defections" was the order of the day.

    The problem with Pfeiffer isn’t what he thought, but how he reacted to not getting his way.

    Theres a Resistance priest shortage because nobody sees a future in an independent, slowly dissolving Resistance.

    There are no priests because Bishop Williamson told some not to join, didn’t want seminaries, and declared he didn’t want to grow a large Resistance.

    Those are facts.

    By the time we got seminaries 3+ years later, it was too late.  Priests fell in love with independence, and those who made Resistance lists in 2012 haven’t been heard from in 7-8+ years.

    Of course, no advertising, publicity, active apostolate (eg., conferences, websites, newsletters, etc) were all part of the strategy of not growing.

    Where Pfeiffer/Hewko went wrong is to accuse WILLIAMSON of working for Fellay/Rome with all these self-destructive policies.  They were wrong: It was just a combination of Williamson not being comfortable starting a congregation without canonical approval, on the one hand, and his “end is near “ perspective which made/makes apostolic activity pointless, on the other.

    But what I refuse to believe is that the Resistance disintegrated because today, there just aren’t any vocations or that integral Catholicism holds no appeal.  

    It’s no criticism to say the Resistance ended up the way it’s leaders wanted it to.  Just plain history.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Caraffa

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #11 on: November 15, 2021, 07:32:50 AM »
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  • The problem with Pfeiffer isn’t what he thought, but how he reacted to not getting his way.

    Theres a Resistance priest shortage because nobody sees a future in an independent, slowly dissolving Resistance.

    There are no priests because Bishop Williamson told some not to join, didn’t want seminaries, and declared he didn’t want to grow a large Resistance.

    Those are facts.

    By the time we got seminaries 3+ years later, it was too late.  Priests fell in love with independence, and those who made Resistance lists in 2012 haven’t been heard from in 7-8+ years.

    Of course, no advertising, publicity, active apostolate (eg., conferences, websites, newsletters, etc) were all part of the strategy of not growing.

    Where Pfeiffer/Hewko went wrong is to accuse WILLIAMSON of working for Fellay/Rome with all these self-destructive policies.  They were wrong: It was just a combination of Williamson not being comfortable starting a congregation without canonical approval, on the one hand, and his “end is near “ perspective which made/makes apostolic activity pointless, on the other.

    But what I refuse to believe is that the Resistance disintegrated because today, there just aren’t any vocations or that integral Catholicism holds no appeal. 

    It’s no criticism to say the Resistance ended up the way it’s leaders wanted it to.  Just plain history.
    Part of the problem with your take on this is you’re too prone to enemy propaganda, and by that I mean XavierXem’s click bait.

    I don’t think you have picked up on the mood in the Neo-SSPX, but a lot of their parishioners want out. I think if we had a differrent environment than the current one, there would have been more open clashes between the priests and the laity over the jab. So many are now praying for a new Traditional Catholic order of priests to come, especially after the SSPX’s response to Covid.

    With regard to the lack priests, I think the inability of many of the French priests to join in 2012 was similar to Trump’s loss to pretender Chernenko II and 1/6. See also the physical similarity of Klaus Schwab to Fr. Pfluger.


    Pray for me, always.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #12 on: November 15, 2021, 07:45:27 AM »
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  • Part of the problem with your take on this is you’re too prone to enemy propaganda, and by that I mean XavierXem’s click bait.

    I don’t think you have picked up on the mood in the Neo-SSPX, but a lot of their parishioners want out. I think if we had a differrent environment than the current one, there would have been more open clashes between the priests and the laity over the jab. So many are now praying for a new Traditional Catholic order of priests to come, especially after the SSPX’s response to Covid.

    With regard to the lack priests, I think the inability of many of the French priests to join in 2012 was similar to Trump’s loss to pretender Chernenko II and 1/6. See also the physical similarity of Klaus Schwab to Fr. Pfluger.

    I was already talking about these issues being problematic in 2015-2016, so not sure what the relevance of XS is.  

     As far as there being “a mood” in the SSPX about their jab position, I’m not aware of them having lost a single priest in opposition to it, and even if they had, coming to the Resistance over that issue would be a dilution of the Resistance, since they apparently would not be opposed to an accord with unconverted Rome.

    That aside, I do not detect any great dissatisfaction of SSPXers in the pews as a result of the jab position: 90% of them will go wherever they’re led.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #13 on: November 15, 2021, 07:51:16 AM »
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  • The SSPX is going the way of the the Conciliar church because their parishioners are indifferent about the faith, just like the 1960's Catholics.

    Everyone who seeks truth will find it. Everyone who really LIVES the faith will find at least a valid priest. The loss of the SSPX is the same as the loss of the entire Church in the 1970's and forward where the scant few Catholics who lived the faith all survived.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: If ABL lived today, the SSPX would not have succeeded
    « Reply #14 on: November 15, 2021, 07:58:44 AM »
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  • That aside, I do not detect any great dissatisfaction of SSPXers in the pews as a result of the jab position: 90% of them will go wherever they’re led.
    It is the indifferent SSPX priest who say nothing or even worse say it is OK to get the jab. It is the indifferent SSPXers who get the jab. It is no different that the 1960's and look at what followed.