Author Topic: Father Angles is for an accord with Rome (Read 28717 times)

hollingsworth · « **Reply #65 on:** April 15, 2014, 08:54:27 PM »

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Azul:
Are you picking on the fact that ABL has not officially been declared a saint yet ?

I am simply recognizing the simple fact that he is not yet declared to be a saint. What is more, the process for his canonization has not yet even begun, nor is it liable to in the present NO climate.

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Has this not been the case with each and every saint, before they get officially recognized as such ? If people know someone well enough and believe he is a saint, even during their life, why would you dispute what they believe, based on the fact that the church has not yet made a formal decision ?

I think Anne Catherine Emmerich should be sainted. But she's not. I think Pius IX, whose incorrupt remains I have seen, should be a saint. He is not as yet. There are numbers of others, who, though they behaved like saints, are not declared saints. If people "believe" that such and such a one should be a saint, that does not automatically confer sainthood. I do not necessarily "dispute" what they believe. I simply dispute that in the case of ABL, his formal canonization has not taken place.

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Can you come up with some good reason for believing ABL is not the saint that people who knew him believe he is ?

Well, let's start with the miracles, and we'll go from there.

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One thing I know for certain, I owe a lot to him and his courage to fight for Tradition and found the SSPX. And I certainly will not be the first to throw a stone at him for anything in him I do not understand or agree with.

I do not doubt his courage, and am not throwing any stones at him. I have not even said that I disagree with him. Still, you make no solid arguments as yet.

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Would you have done better in his shoes ? Do you know him well enough to say he could possibly not be a saint ?

Those remarks are a bit vacuous I would say.

Nobody · « **Reply #66 on:** April 15, 2014, 09:56:23 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

This is the kind of Lefebvrism which scares me to death. No, ABL was not another St. Francis. No, ABL did not "single handedly" preserve the "Mass and Tradition." No, ABL is not the "greatest saint of the 20th century." By the ancient criteria established for achieving sainthood, I'm not even sure that he is a saint, much less, the greatest one of the 20th Century.

Quote from: hollingsworth

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Azul:
Are you picking on the fact that ABL has not officially been declared a saint yet ?

I am simply recognizing the simple fact that he is not yet declared to be a saint. What is more, the process for his canonization has not yet even begun, nor is it liable to in the present NO climate.

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Has this not been the case with each and every saint, before they get officially recognized as such ? If people know someone well enough and believe he is a saint, even during their life, why would you dispute what they believe, based on the fact that the church has not yet made a formal decision ?

I think Anne Catherine Emmerich should be sainted. But she's not. I think Pius IX, whose incorrupt remains I have seen, should be a saint. He is not as yet. There are numbers of others, who, though they behaved like saints, are not declared saints. If people "believe" that such and such a one should be a saint, that does not automatically confer sainthood. I do not necessarily "dispute" what they believe. I simply dispute that in the case of ABL, his formal canonization has not taken place.

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Can you come up with some good reason for believing ABL is not the saint that people who knew him believe he is ?

Well, let's start with the miracles, and we'll go from there.

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One thing I know for certain, I owe a lot to him and his courage to fight for Tradition and found the SSPX. And I certainly will not be the first to throw a stone at him for anything in him I do not understand or agree with.

I do not doubt his courage, and am not throwing any stones at him. I have not even said that I disagree with him. Still, you make no solid arguments as yet.

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Would you have done better in his shoes ? Do you know him well enough to say he could possibly not be a saint ?

Those remarks are a bit vacuous I would say.

You thought it important enough to tell us that you doubt whether ABL could possibly be considered a Saint. You have given no reason yet for this opinion, only stated an obvious fact that does neither prove nor disprove the possibility of ABL being declared a saint at some stage.

Is there another reason ? Would you be willing to tell us ? I am very skeptical of people who tell us their conclusion without telling us how they came to that conclusion.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #67 on:** April 15, 2014, 10:03:06 PM »

I would say he is the greatest saint since the Bible.

I can't think of a single saint since then to match his stature in terms of heroic virtue.

Though, by the time it is all said and done, there may be one in England who could make that claim.

stgobnait · « **Reply #68 on:** April 16, 2014, 04:11:38 AM »

anyone reading the heading of this topic.. and going to the last post of sean johnson, could be forgiven for thinking.........

hollingsworth · « **Reply #69 on:** April 16, 2014, 11:58:41 AM »

Nobody:

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You thought it important enough to tell us that you doubt whether ABL could possibly be considered a Saint. You have given no reason yet for this opinion, only stated an obvious fact that does neither prove nor disprove the possibility of ABL being declared a saint at some stage.

Is there another reason ? Would you be willing to tell us ? I am very skeptical of people who tell us their conclusion without telling us how they came to that conclusion.

Not exactly. I thought it important enough to correct what I think is an incorrect perception of the Archbishop. Sean Johnson's latest remark is even more disturbing, IMO, viz. I would say he (ABL) is the greatest saint since the Bible.

WHOA!
I do not discount the possibility that ABL may one day be declared a saint. However, I would like to hear about at least one miracle which he performed before the process of canonization begins.
We still try to follow the principles laid down by the Archbishop, and the course set by him. However, in doing so, we do not feel that we are forced to recognize him necessarily as a saint or add his name to the liturgical calendar. He was a great and holy leader. He was one of the most important contemporary figures surrounding the restoration of traditional Catholicism. That admission being made still does not require that we confess him to be the greatest saint of the 20th century, or that we assume that no other "single saint" can "can match his stature in terms of heroic virtue." Oh my! That is a bit much, don't you think?