It is real easy to want a chuch like St. Isidore, but it's another thing to actually put up ones own money to pay for it.

Of those people who put thumbs down to my idea, how many of you have paid with your own money for a millions of dollar church like a St. Isidore?

Indeed bowler, you sound like a protestant.

I know, I used to be one.

Nice Churches are expensive though. I live two blocks from a pretty nice Novus Ordo Church. They are raising money to fix the roof and it is going to cost over one million dollars just to fix the roof.

Must be big then.

My parish is *the* historical first (non-Mission) church in the region, although rebuilt in the 1860's it is still the oldest structure we are told (nothing still standing is apparently older than 1860's construction?) And is spanish tile roof (more expensive) and is in California (ridiculously expensive labor and materials)

Our re-roof was something like 160K.

Indeed bowler, you sound like a protestant.

I know, I used to be one.

No quote from you showing where I sounded like a Protestant.

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: bowler

I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. [/b] Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.

You're, as has been pointed out to you by others, leading into a false dichotomy. People should not build Churches with the idea of being humble; this in no way takes away from a person or people's humility. ...
You're starting to sound like a Protestant (Look at how much money the Church spent on building extravagant t buildings when there was the poor who could have used it more!). This is what I was speaking of in the other thread on dress- your attitude is Jansenistic (aka Protestant).
 

Total Strawman.

Matthew and I are pretty much the same thing (except that Matthew is talking about building two $10,000 chapels instead of one $20,000. While i was talking about building 20 small chapels versus one giant chapel), and yet I don't see you writing the same way to him that you did to me. Is that because he owns Cathinfo?

You detracted twice against my character based on a strawman of your creation, in other words, you created a strawman that you made out to be me, then you detracted twice against that "strawman Bowler", that you invented.

Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.

What do you have to say for yourself?

I once had the impression that the SSPX was about survival, humble small wood chapels with a few people trying to just survive the current war against the faith, and that the SSPX priests existed only because of the supplied jurisdiction provided by the faithful. [....] building beautiful marble churches to attract new people is not our job. Our job is keeping the faith, preaching the truth, keeping our families isolated from precisely the type of people who are repulsed by the "humble small wood chapel with a few people trying to just survive the current war against the faith".

I've read all of this thread to date, and I'm amazed at the hostility that's been directed toward 'bowler'.

What is better for the faithful, to build?  One St. Isidore like this: [largish basilica style] or 20 small chapels like this spread over the World?

No one has addressed an issue of recurring high cost: Isn't it quite expensive to operate a single huge church having a grand interior featuring vaulted ceilings?  Nowadays, visitors and transplants to overly warm places like Florida insist on being pampered by air conditioning.  Maintaining comfortable air-conditioned temperatures at the level of its huge floor would guzzle energy--thus money.  Never mind that churches were filled in Florida for decades with fan-waving faithful adapted to life without a.c. (even into the Space Age).

This issue occurred to me because the recurring cost of cooling a decommissioned high-ceilinged industrial building (rearranged for offices and rehearsal space) was the primary factor that forced into bankruptcy an opera company in central Florida that'd been established for many decades.  They originally thought they'd been very clever & frugal to've obtained, repurposed, and occupied that building.

By contrast, ceilings of ordinary secular-office height would not be out-of-place in a sensible "humble small [...] chapel".  That does not mean that its ecclesiastical furnishings should be grimly Protestant, altho' it'd be very prudent in Florida to spend money on insulation that won't visually inspire the faithful.  Seems to me that genuine antique Catholic furnishings would be readily available nowadays, as a consequence of the wreckovations and wrecking balls of Novus Ordo bishops whose deeds have earned notoriety for their hostility to the traditional faith.

There seems to be one factor that has been omitted from this discussion, unless I've missed it:  People need the sacraments, especially if they are in mortal sin.  

These are not the good old days when there was a parish church nearby for almost everyone and you could certainly contribute all you wanted to yours.  Yes, God SHOULD have the most beautiful things imaginable for His dwelling.  But His favorite dwelling, as the saints write, is in souls who are in the state of grace.  He does not dwell in those who are not--those in mortal sin--and He wants everyone to be in the state of grace so that we can attain eternal salvation and enjoy Heaven with Him.  If someone is in mortal sin they are in danger of not only losing God dwelling within but their eternal salvation as well.  Our primary purpose on this earth is to give glory to God.  The main way to do so is to be in the state of grace; i.e., no mortal sin.  Confession is needed for the remission of sin and Communion is needed wherever possible for the graces to remain without mortal sin and fight temptations.

My personal opinion is that this is where true love of neighbor comes in.  If we truly care about our neighbor it means we care primarily about their souls, whether we personally know these people or not.  The more chapels or at least a place to receive the sacraments that there are, the more places people have to go to confess and make their souls a beautiful dwelling for Almighty God again and receive Him in Communion and be given more grace to remain in the state of grace.  Our answer cannot be "It's not my problem" (stating an often-used answer in today's society at large).  It IS my problem if we truly want to follow the commandment to love our neighbor -- we must care about their souls and want for them what we want for ourselves, and the needs of the soul take precedence over those of the body, as Christ tells us in the Gospels.  We say the Rosary every day for sinners and we ourselves are some of those sinners.  Well, we all need places to confess, especially if we are in mortal sin and in danger of losing our souls.  (I realize I am repeating myself but THIS is the most important factor of all as I see it.)  Many, many people are simply unable to drive a long distance to hear Mass!  It has been this way and the situation may become even more grave as time goes on.

It is true that there is a shortage of priests, but perhaps if we had more places to have Mass (even homes, etc.) the people could form a group and pay for a priest to come even once a month, perhaps coordinate one Mass center with another to provide drivers for him and he could go to a few places before returning to KY or wherever, and perhaps the more affluent places could help those more financially strained with having their needs met. The group I belong to has been assisted greatly by an established chapel.  No, I will not reveal where I am.  But the point is, we have the sacraments whereas without the other group's help, we might not.  

We ALL need the sacraments and we ALL need a place to receive them.  I feel sure God WILL provide even if we must wait as is the situation in Texas.

We are currently in a time of necessity in the Church.  There is a contagious disease (Modernism) that is eating souls alive.  We Traditional Catholics have been given the medicine to stay healthy (the Traditional Faith and the sacraments).  Let's help one another in this time of need--FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND NEIGHBOR.  

The altar of an unsoiled soul is the most magnificent altar imaginable to God.  Our sacrifice is love and adoration.  This is above and beyond anything that any human being is capable of producing, buying, building.  It is something supernatural.  If the place where we have Mass is less than what we desire to have, so be it.  We do what we can.  God well knows our limitations in this regard.  But let us at least be sinless before Him and let us have as many places as are needed to remain so.  

This topic now seems to be a much better match to the "Catholic Bunker" (or "Resistance Movement" or "Crisis in the Church") category, but I've just gone with the flow, and kept it in "SSPX-Rome Agreement", where 'bowler' originated it.
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What is better for the faithful, to build?  One [largish basilica style like] St. Isidore [...] or 20 small chapels[....] spread over the World?

I previously expressed my concerns, in this same topic, on an issue of recurring cost (Apr 10, 2013, 1:32 am, above).

Lately, someone else (who, like me, is a relative newcomer here) raised the issue of continued availability of the sacraments:

People need the sacraments, especially if they are in mortal sin.  These are not the good old days when there was a parish church nearby for almost everyone [....] The more chapels or at least a place to receive the sacraments that there are, the more places people have [available] to go to confess and make their souls a beautiful dwelling for Almighty God again and receive Him in Communion and be given more grace to remain in the state of grace.

Both sensibly point to solutions in the same direction as for another important issue--a strategic issue--not previously addressed:

I write this with trepidation, because I'm unsure whether a majority of CathInfo members believe that their lives will be at risk for practicing traditional Catholicism in the not-too-distant future.  But for those who do believe that, it seems logical to me that in a time of renewed persecution, large attention-getting churches ought to be avoided as sites of increased risk, not only because they are highly conspicuous, but also because reliance by the faithful on a single site simplifies the task of persecution.

Far better to have more and less conspicuous refuges, to maximize the opportunities to receive the sacraments, while striving to survive as traditional Catholics in such a future.

In the U.S.A., it's becoming increasingly difficult to avoid the conclusion that the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security and its Transportation Security Administration are being trained & equipped to serve as federal agents of a kind of repression that was nearly unanimously dismissed at the end of the 20th Century: "it could never happen here".  Alas, news of highway check-point road-blocks set up by TSA far from our international borders, makes it worth considering whether travel to a traditional Mass in the future, even across county lines, might become an ordeal without government authorization.

A U.S. citizen no longer needs to be especially cynical to imagine that enforcement of government-imposed restrictions on personal travel, especially in a tourism-intensive state like Florida, would be highly unlikely to have anything legitimate to do with "national security", except as a flimsy pretext for violating the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Hostility or repression that might be focused on future refuges for the Faith might make it extremely desirable to furnish them with nonsacramental objects that are easily set up (ponere|facere), are stout during use, are resilient during transportation, and are easily broken down (movere) for evacuation (as for a M.A.S.H. or traveling circus).

The currently depressed market in U.S. commercial real estate, apparent from the abundance of empty storefronts--from sole-proprietor strip-mall niches to major retail-chain stores--seems to present opportunities for arranging to multiply the refuges now available to the Faith.  I'll have to leave details as an exercise for someone who has demonstrable financial expertise, something I demonstrably do not possess.

The physical beauty that distinguishes the Catholic faith from the Protestant could still be in evidence, albeit limited, for practical reasons, to those physical objects that are easily portable--or natural objects reasonably expendable.