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Author Topic: Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners  (Read 6025 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
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  • Bowler,
    I think I get your point.

    Expensive, marble laden churches can give the image of religion without the substance.

    Here are two different examples:

    1. In the 1990s, a Chinese friend and I went to see St. Joseph's Cathedral in San Jose, CA.  It had just undergone a $20mil restoration and the interior and artwork were exquisite, despite the fact it was a new mass design.

    My Chinese friend was so overwhelmed by the restoration job, he stated he wanted to start going there for Sunday Mass.

    I think he was impressed with the material grandeur and wanted to take his girlfriend to a classy church. However, religious doctirine and worship of God were not of his interest. This could be one example of your point.

    2. In Covington, KY, there is a most beautiful Cathedral named St. Mary's of the Assumption Basilica built in 1895 and elevated to a Basilica by St. Pope Pius X.



    If you walk through the surrounding neighborhood of this parish, you'll see mostly modest and humble homes.  

    It's obvious the faithful there funded this church, with a large portion of their hard earned dollars, for the honor and glory of God.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline bowler

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #16 on: April 04, 2013, 10:09:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous
    Bowler,
    I think I get your point.

    Expensive, marble laden churches can give the image of religion without the substance.

    Here are two different examples:

    1. In the 1990s, a Chinese friend and I went to see St. Joseph's Cathedral in San Jose, CA.  It had just undergone a $20mil restoration and the interior and artwork were exquisite, despite the fact it was a new mass design.

    My Chinese friend was so overwhelmed by the restoration job, he stated he wanted to start going there for Sunday Mass.

    I think he was impressed with the material grandeur and wanted to take his girlfriend to a classy church. However, religious doctirine and worship of God were not of his interest. This could be one example of your point.


    Yes that is exactly an example of what I was refering to when I said that:

    Quote
    building fancy marble chapels to "attract" new people who would never have gone to an SSPX "humble small wood chapel with a few people trying to just survive the current war against the faith".


    Quote from: Incredulous
    Bowler,
    I think I get your point.


    2. In Covington, KY, there is a most beautiful Cathedral named St. Mary's of the Assumption Basilica built in 1895 and elevated to a Basilica by St. Pope Pius X.



    If you walk through the surrounding neighborhood of this parish, you'll see mostly modest and humble homes.  

    It's obvious the faithful there funded this church, with a large portion of their hard earned dollars, for the honor and glory of God.




    The local neighborhood Novus Ordo church that I would be going to if it was still Catholic, is also large, and was built in 1926. When I was young they had like 6 masses per day with like 5000+ people in total on Sundays. Obviously, the parishioner base (the money) was there to support such a church.

    From what I've seen, the SSPX chapels do not have the parishioner base to cover their chapels. The few parishioners are overburdened with paying for something they can't afford. Hence the constant appeals for more money. A good example is the new $1,000,000 seminary. It would be much easier for them if the people who seek to build monuments would ease up with their personal aspirations, and live in the reality that we are living "in the deserts". Don't you think?

    If the SSPX was composed of little chapels all over, it would not be very attractive for takeover. I believe the takeover of the SSPX is a sign from God that he does not want us building monuments. That we should rely on preaching the truth to attract parishioners, rather than marble monuments.
    Who would want to steal that little chapel in the picture that I posted? Now St. Isidore, every priests would want to have that church!


    Offline bowler

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #17 on: April 04, 2013, 10:27:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    If the SSPX was composed of little chapels all over, it would not be very attractive for takeover. I believe the takeover of the SSPX is a sign from God that he does not want us building monuments. That we should rely on preaching the truth to attract parishioners, rather than marble monuments.
    Who would want to steal that little chapel in the picture that I posted? Now St. Isidore, every priests would want to have that church!


    Another thought is that these fancy churches also attract priests looking for comforts, rather than a priest like the Cure de Ars that was looking to save souls. If the SSPX was a bunch of small chapels like the one in the picture, I can guaranty everyone that the Fr. Pflugers, Schimbergers, Bp. Fellays would have no interest in them. They likely would have never even entered the SSPX. AND how many of the current seminarians are more of the same "comforts" priests? You won't see any of those running to Fr. Pfeiffer's seminary to serve "shanty" chapels.

    Offline songbird

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 10:51:29 AM »
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  • Just for human interest:  In Germany, I saw chapels in the castles.  Marble was  too expensive and to haul/ship.  So, wood columns were painted to look like marble and boy does it!!  Until you touch it, it looks like the real thing!

    Offline JMacQ

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 11:23:22 AM »
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  • It was Rev Fr Joseph Pfeiffer who built the church of St Isidore (yes, our very own Fr Pfeiffer) and I do not see anything wrong with that.

    In fact I hope he can build many more beautiful churches like it.
    O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
    Praised be Jesus ad Mary!

    "Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta"


    Offline Mea Culpa

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #20 on: April 05, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote
    If the SSPX was composed of little chapels all over, it would not be very attractive for takeover. I believe the takeover of the SSPX is a sign from God that he does not want us building monuments. That we should rely on preaching the truth to attract parishioners, rather than marble monuments.
    Who would want to steal that little chapel in the picture that I posted? Now St. Isidore, every priests would want to have that church!


    Another thought is that these fancy churches also attract priests looking for comforts, rather than a priest like the Cure de Ars that was looking to save souls. If the SSPX was a bunch of small chapels like the one in the picture, I can guaranty everyone that the Fr. Pflugers, Schimbergers, Bp. Fellays would have no interest in them. They likely would have never even entered the SSPX. AND how many of the current seminarians are more of the same "comforts" priests? You won't see any of those running to Fr. Pfeiffer's seminary to serve "shanty" chapels.


    Seeing Fr. Pfeiffer celebrate Mass on the streets, walking in flooded waters to assist souls, sleeping on pews or on the ground, and doing whatever it takes to save souls has made a huge impact on my view of the true humility a true Catholic priest should possess (just like the priests from past centuries). Fr. could care less about any bodily/worldly comforts (which certainly can't be said about some of the neo-SSPX priests....i.e "The SeaWorld Rollercoaster priests") and he just goes wherever souls are in need.

    Whether Fr. Pfeiffer celebrated mass in a backyard barn or a huge Cathedral, it wouldn't have made one difference to me as I know Fr. speaks the Truth.
    (I'm only using Fr. Pfeiffer as an example here as I've personally witnessed him "in action", but I'm aware that all the other resistance priests have a similar mindset and have proven themselves without doubt......they did this by just leaving the "comforts" of the neo-SSPX organization).

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #21 on: April 05, 2013, 12:18:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: JMacQ
    It was Rev Fr Joseph Pfeiffer who built the church of St Isidore (yes, our very own Fr Pfeiffer) and I do not see anything wrong with that.

    In fact I hope he can build many more beautiful churches like it.


    Likely, as soon as he was done, they took it from him. Just like they will take all of the nice ones.

    I wonder what Fr. Pfieiffer thinks about that today?

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #22 on: April 05, 2013, 01:36:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Hi Bowler, you asked for comments, so here is mine:

    From the bottom of my heart I believe there cannot be enough beauty to honor Our Lord and His Blessed Mother.

    If the very best one can possibly do is humble and poor, may God bless the honst effort.  But whenever there is an opportunity or the talent to create something beautiful for the glory of God, it should be done.  

    Our Catholic tradition is full of stories about saints and holy people finding beautiful sacred objects, hiding statures during wars and persecutions, miraculous images happening and so forth.  

    One reason some of us are *nervous* about Pope Francis is his Humble  thing.  Plain and non-descript is masonic, Jєωιѕн and Protestant.  




     :applause: :applause:
    You couldnt be more right, Elizabeth!   In the history of the Church, thousands of magnificent churches have been built to honor Our Lord and his Blessed Mother.  Most of them have taken  100 years to build.  
    If there is money to build churches, than they should be built.
    However, I might add, there are now many abandoned beautiful churches that can be reclaimed.  The problem is, if the Novus Ordo finds out that traditionalists want to buy a church, they refuse to sell.  They have no problem selling to protestants.


    Offline Matto

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #23 on: April 05, 2013, 01:53:31 PM »
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  • I like beautiful Churches. My chapel is still in a Hotel room and we do not draw many people though the city it is located in is very large. I wonder sometimes if more people would come if we had a beautiful Church.

    But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #24 on: April 05, 2013, 01:59:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.


    Its not for us to decide, but for us to allow the Holy Ghost to inspire in whatever way He sees fit (and than to pray that those entering our Church are open to his inspiration). The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.

    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 02:14:47 PM »
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  • I think it is a valid issue to discuss.  If a parish can truly afford to build something grand then it is their decision, however, there should be some sort of "fund" to which the faithful can contribute to build the small chapels in places were none exists.  I don't think it has to be an either/or question.

    Marsha


    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 02:16:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    The SSPX seems to have no qualms about abandoning very nice, well-located churches.


    Where did this happen?  I had not heard of them leaving any locations.

    Marsha

    Offline bowler

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    Fancy Marble Attracts New Parishioners
    « Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 03:11:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Matto
    But then, I wonder if the people who are attracted because of the beauty of the Church would be the best Catholics.


    Its not for us to decide, but for us to allow the Holy Ghost to inspire in whatever way He sees fit (and than to pray that those entering our Church are open to his inspiration). The entire premise of the OP is ridiculous; Bowler is trying, but failing, to be a holier than thou person. The nitpicking offered by some here remove credibility from the resistance. I sometimes wonder if people actually think about the things they come up with. Evidently not.


    Is that all that you have to contribute sir, ad-hominem attacks? I don't see anything else.

    Offline Elizabeth

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    « Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 03:18:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: songbird
    Just for human interest:  In Germany, I saw chapels in the castles.  Marble was  too expensive and to haul/ship.  So, wood columns were painted to look like marble and boy does it!!  Until you touch it, it looks like the real thing!


    You were reading my mind!  The first thing I thought of was painting faux-marble.  It's not even very hard to do.  It can even me made seriously beautiful and durable on cardboard.

    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #29 on: April 06, 2013, 02:44:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Elizabeth
    Hi Bowler, you asked for comments, so here is mine:

    From the bottom of my heart I believe there cannot be enough beauty to honor Our Lord and His Blessed Mother.

    If the very best one can possibly do is humble and poor, may God bless the honst effort.  But whenever there is an opportunity or the talent to create something beautiful for the glory of God, it should be done.  

    Our Catholic tradition is full of stories about saints and holy people finding beautiful sacred objects, hiding statures during wars and persecutions, miraculous images happening and so forth.  

    One reason some of us are *nervous* about Pope Francis is his Humble  thing.  Plain and non-descript is masonic, Jєωιѕн and Protestant.  



    What is better for the faithful, to build?:

    One St. Isidore like this:




    or 20 small chapels like this spread over the World?:


    Quote from: Elizabeth
    (please pardon my poor grammar in earlier post)

    I have to admit you've got a point, Bowler.  BUT how about painting faux marble and gorgeous interiors?  Instead of plain old wood?  If there are artists available?

    And making lovely gardens with free or easily propagated plants and flowers?


    I never said anything about "plain old wood", AND I only used the word "humble" to describe 20 smaller churches that could be built for the price of one big one. Everyone can scratch out the word "humble" and "wood" if they want, if it bothers them. Build it out of cement block, build it out of wood painted like marble, guild it with gold, whatever, I'm strictly talking about 20 small churches spread all over the world versus one church like St. Isidore.