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Author Topic: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?  (Read 4072 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2025, 09:17:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on November 26, 2025, 11:23:15 AM
    Property matters are not included. It seems the canon specifically talks about office and religious matters being put before a civil court.

    I don't see that in the Canon anywhere.  Could you please explain?  To me it just says you cannot take them before civil courts period.

    Perhaps there's a commentary on the Code of Canon Law that says it only applies to bishops who actively hold (at least titular) sees, but +Lefebvre had already resigned his regular see (Tulle) and his Titular one before this.  To me it would seem that the mind of the Church has to do with the fact that only the Church can judge Church leaders, and that it would apply to all bishops in good standing.

    Whether or not they technically violated Canon Law to the point of excommunication, they certainly violated the spirit of the law and the behavior was inappropriate.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #16 on: November 26, 2025, 09:20:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ridgefield on November 26, 2025, 06:05:58 PM
    “Whoever summons a bishop before a civil court incurs, by that very fact, an excommunication reserved in a special manner to the Apostolic See.”

    Canon 2341 (1917 CIC)

    Was this oversimplified mistranslation deliberate?  Cardinals, Abbots, or your own Ordinary is reserved in special mode, but other bishops, even titular, would be simple reserved.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #17 on: November 26, 2025, 09:33:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2025, 09:17:44 PM
    I don't see that in the Canon anywhere.  Could you please explain?  To me it just says you cannot take them before civil courts period.

    Perhaps there's a commentary on the Code of Canon Law that says it only applies to bishops who actively hold (at least titular) sees, but +Lefebvre had already resigned his regular see (Tulle) and his Titular one before this.  To me it would seem that the mind of the Church has to do with the fact that only the Church can judge Church leaders, and that it would apply to all bishops in good standing.

    Whether or not they technically violated Canon Law to the point of excommunication, they certainly violated the spirit of the law and the behavior was inappropriate.

    I'm referring to "ob negotia ad eorum munus pertinentia"      "for matters pertaining to their duties"





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    Offline Ridgefield

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #18 on: November 26, 2025, 10:25:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2025, 09:20:13 PM
    Was this oversimplified mistranslation deliberate?  Cardinals, Abbots, or your own Ordinary is reserved in special mode, but other bishops, even titular, would be simple reserved.
    Qui Episcopum ad civile tribunal vocat, ipso facto excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata plectitur.

    Canon 2341 assigns a single penalty, excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata, for summoning any bishop before a civil court, and unlike Canons 2331 or 2343 it contains no hierarchical distinctions whatsoever, making your claim of a “lesser reservation” simply incompatible with the text.

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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #19 on: November 27, 2025, 08:43:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ridgefield on November 26, 2025, 10:25:07 PM
    Qui Episcopum ad civile tribunal vocat, ipso facto excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata plectitur.

    Canon 2341 assigns a single penalty, excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata, for summoning any bishop before a civil court, and unlike Canons 2331 or 2343 it contains no hierarchical distinctions whatsoever, making your claim of a “lesser reservation” simply incompatible with the text.

    Comment on, "ob negotia ad eorum munus pertinentia" ?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 12:58:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on November 25, 2025, 10:08:08 PM
    Oh so that would include Pius XII under the anathema too, according to your logic? Well, well, well...

    Trento,

    You're just "posturing" that St. Pope Pius V's Papal Bull doesn't apply to Pope Pius XII... but it does.

    This denial of the Canonically codified Mass is a critical position the SSPX maintains because of their old compromise to the Bugnini/Montini 1962 Missal.

    Bottomline, SSPX altar missals are without Quo Primum.

     

    St. Pope Pius V's Bull, was our spiritual inoculation against attacks on the Liturgy that he knew were coming in this purgative, "5th Age of the Church".

    Pius XII's Liturgical compromise is not a question of the validity of his papacy, but of the errors in his pontificate, of which there were many.

    For example, he brought Msgr. Annibale Bugnini into Rome to Revise the Sacred Liturgy.  


    Bugnini's ultimate masonic mission was to desacralize the Holy Mass, which he eventually did with the Novus ordo missae.

    In addition, Pius XII approved of Opus Dei, the masonic apostolate of the crypto jew and fake saint, Josemaria Escriva. 


    This forum's archives has a topic of over 56 pages of posts dissecting his organization's infiltration into the Catholic Church.


    Link: Opus Dei - page 56 - Members Only - Catholic Info



    Trento, If you're ever interested in starting a debate on Pius XII's papacy on Cathinfo... you will have many takers.





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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 01:12:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ridgefield on November 26, 2025, 10:25:07 PM
    Qui Episcopum ad civile tribunal vocat, ipso facto excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata plectitur.

    Canon 2341 assigns a single penalty, excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata, for summoning any bishop before a civil court, and unlike Canons 2331 or 2343 it contains no hierarchical distinctions whatsoever, making your claim of a “lesser reservation” simply incompatible with the text.

    I quoted the entire text above.  Did you simply not read it.  It starts with the special mode excommunication in the first part, and then a simpliciter reserved in the second part.  It's as if you're bloviating about it without having read it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 01:14:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ridgefield on November 26, 2025, 10:25:07 PM
    Qui Episcopum ad civile tribunal vocat, ipso facto excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata plectitur.

    Canon 2341 assigns a single penalty, excommunicatione speciali modo Sedi Apostolicae reservata, for summoning any bishop before a civil court, and unlike Canons 2331 or 2343 it contains no hierarchical distinctions whatsoever, making your claim of a “lesser reservation” simply incompatible with the text.

    Slap this in Google Translate (it's getting pretty good now).

    2341  Si quis contra praescriptum can. 120 ausus fuerit ad iudicem laicuм trahere aliquem ex S. R. E. Cardinalibus vel Legatis Sedis Apostolicae, vel Officialibus maioribus Romanae Curiae ob negotia ad eorum munus pertinentia, vel Ordinarium proprium, contrahit ipso facto excommunicationem Sedi Apostolicae speciali modo reservatam; si alium Episcopum etiam mere titularem, vel Abbatem aut Praelatum nullius, vel aliquem ex supremis religionum iuris pontificii Superioribus, excommunicationem latae sententiae Sedi Apostolicae simpliciter reservatam; demum si, non obtenta ab Ordinario loci licentia, aliam personam privilegio fori fruentem, clericus quidem incurrit ipso facto in suspensionem ab officio reservatam Ordinario, laicus autem congruis poenis pro gravitate culpae a proprio Ordinario puniatur.

    Special Mode Reservation -- Cardinals, Legates of the Holy See, Major Officials of the Roman Curia. his own Ordinary
    Simple Mode Reservation -- Any Other Bishop, even merely Titular, an Abbot or Prelate in charge of no one
    ... Suspension from Office and other TBD by his Ordinary -- anyone else who's subject to Canon Law

    So it says here that you get a simpliciter reservatam (to the Holy See) excommunication for bringing anyone to the court, even if they're a "Prelate of no one" (which seems to suggest even if they have no ordinary jurisdicition or MIGHT be synonymous with being at least a "merely titular" bishops, not sure).

    Where there might be some wiggle room is whether someone must be a bishops with some kind of rank, at least Titular ... since +Lefebvre had resigned his positions before the Nine brought their suit.  I believe that they would certainly have incurred the last part, suspension from office etc. ... except of course, Traditional priests don't really have office and are in a quasi-suspended state anyway.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 01:30:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on November 27, 2025, 08:43:34 AM
    Comment on, "ob negotia ad eorum munus pertinentia" ?

    yep, regarding matters that are pertinent to the excercise of their offices

    So, it's not subject to these extreme penalties if the matter is unrelated to the bishop being a bishop, but as a private person.  So, for instance, if the bishop came to your house and vandalized your car or molested your children, or something ... that's completely outside any activity related / pertinent to his exercise of his office, but merely a personal act.  It's quite clear that these lawsuits regarding the properties were in this category.  +Lefebvre wasn't, for instance, acquiring rental properties or vacations homes.  I think they could try to wiggle out of it based on a claim that he had no "authority" to establish these things, but that's not the intent of this phrase here "negotia pertinentia" is a very broad expression where any matters that pertain to their office (in this case episcopal), to distinguish them from entirely secular matters.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 01:31:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 01:30:05 PM
    yep, regarding matters that are pertinent to the excercise of their offices

    So, it's not subject to these extreme penalties if the matter is unrelated to the bishop being a bishop, but as a private person.  So, for instance, if the bishop came to your house and vandalized your car or molested your children, or something ... that's completely outside any activity related / pertinent to his exercise of his office, but merely a personal act.  It's quite clear that these lawsuits regarding the properties were in this category.  +Lefebvre wasn't, for instance, acquiring rental properties or vacations homes.  I think they could try to wiggle out of it based on a claim that he had no "authority" to establish these things, but that's not the intent of this phrase here "negotia pertinentia" is a very broad expression where any matters that pertain to their office (in this case episcopal), to distinguish them from entirely secular matters.

    Property is not a spiritual matter.

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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 10:39:37 PM »
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Excommunicated: Fathers Cekada, Dolan, Jenkins, Kelly and Sanborn ?
    « Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 10:57:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 26, 2025, 11:23:37 AM

    Bishop Williamson chose wisely in deciding to major in music rather than Canon Law.

    I've often pondered what the Bishop's boyhood dinner table conversations were like when his Dad came home from a long day working at the Zionist Brit retailer. Marks Spencer.


    :laugh1:
    :laugh1::laugh2::laugh1::laugh2:
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