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Author Topic: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained  (Read 18528 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2017, 01:16:44 PM »
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  • Tradplorable has been banned.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #61 on: November 16, 2017, 01:34:50 PM »
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  • Tradplorable has been banned.
    .
    Oh, no!  ???   :(   :o .................. You mean, no more incomprehensible non-answers about his flat-earthism?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #62 on: November 16, 2017, 01:38:35 PM »
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  • .
    Oh, no!  ???   :(   :o .................. You mean, no more incomprehensible non-answers about his flat-earthism?
    .
    I guess not.
    This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Flat Earth, however, and I'd appreciate you not starting a fight outside "the ghetto" on that topic.
    Some people believe very strongly about that topic.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #63 on: November 16, 2017, 01:41:15 PM »
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  • Yes, Matthew, but to what extent?
    In my dealings with priests, I ask for lineage, confirm lineage, and evaluate.  I dont ask them for docuмentation proving that the ceremonies of his bishop up through the pre-vat II bishop occurred.

    Now, I would assume a priest/prior would check the lineage docuмentation of a boshop for his seminarians.  Do the seminarians really have a choice of bishop?  No.  If fr. Chazal calls in Moran to ordain his seminarians, do the seminarians have a choice in the matter?  I guess they could leave, but they are supposed to trust father prior's judgement.

    It seems to me that fr. Mbadugha answered the question when IH said that he obeyed the priest he was working under.  The lineage was provided.  If you are so inclined, one could, himself, contact b. Adamson and ask for proof.  But the rest of us should, as fr. M did, assume that fr. M's superior did his homework and verified the lineage via docuмentation.

    Also, it was said that fr. M tried several times to leave OLMC.  Why he wanted to leave and why he stayed you will have to ask him.  Why he went to OLMC in the first place, you will have to ask him.  

    Perhaps rather than jumping to conclusions and causing detraction and/or scandal you should ask Fr. M your questions
    .
    One problem with this post is this:  Fr. Francois Chazal is not going to "call in Moran to ordain his seminarians." 
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    To the extent that your line of reasoning relies on that as a principle, it fails, because it's invalid, it's not going to happen.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #64 on: November 16, 2017, 01:46:55 PM »
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  • A seminarian isn't a prisoner with no rights.  If he doesn't trust that a bishop is valid, he can just leave the seminary or study house, or wherever he is.  This assumes he's already asked for evidence of his own concerning the bishop, and has been refused or given little answer.  If he blindly trusts his seminary director concerning a bishop, it makes me wonder about the common sense level and 'street smarts' of the seminarian.

    Secondly, there's 2 issues here, which are being co-mingled.  1) the validity of the priest and 2) the validity of the bishop who consecrated the priest.  It seems that in this case, there are doubts about both the priest and the bishop, therefore evidence and an explanation is doubly important.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #65 on: November 16, 2017, 01:51:33 PM »
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  • .
    One problem with this post is this:  Fr. Francois Chazal is not going to "call in Moran to ordain his seminarians."
    .
    To the extent that your line of reasoning relies on that as a principle, it fails, because it's invalid, it's not going to happen.
    .
    Indeed. If Fr. Chazal ever lost his mind in that manner, any sane seminarians would have to leave.
    The ones who stayed behind for a few months, or a few years, would always have lingering questions hanging over them, re: their good judgment.

    Agreed -- the seminarians are not prisoners. There is a time for charity, humility, deference -- staying silent and putting up with OUTRAGEOUS situations (a man like Pablo being in charge of a seminary, approval of Ambrose Moran as a bishop, attacking good resistance priests) is not one of them!
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #66 on: November 16, 2017, 01:53:00 PM »
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  • I guess not.
    This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Flat Earth, however, and I'd appreciate you not starting a fight outside "the ghetto" on that topic.
    Some people believe very strongly about that topic.
    .
    Understood. No problem.
    .
    However, I would cordially invite ANYONE who "strongly believes" as you say, to come and discuss their belief in "the ghetto" because not a single member has been willing to put their blind faith to the test in a simple, direct manner. Catholic faith is not blind, and does not require Catholics to deny the evidence observable by our senses and examined by our intellect. Only our free will gets us into trouble by choosing to ignore what our intellect provides.
    .
    Back to the topic at hand:
    .
    It might be nice for newcomers if you would explain exactly WHY Tradplorable was banned. I would presume it has to do with him persistently opposing you or testing the principles you have just explained here and in other threads for the umpteenth time. Am I wrong?
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #67 on: November 16, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »
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  • A seminarian isn't a prisoner with no rights.  If he doesn't trust that a bishop is valid, he can just leave the seminary or study house, or wherever he is.  This assumes he's already asked for evidence of his own concerning the bishop, and has been refused or given little answer.  If he blindly trusts his seminary director concerning a bishop, it makes me wonder about the common sense level and 'street smarts' of the seminarian.

    Secondly, there's 2 issues here, which are being co-mingled.  1) the validity of the priest and 2) the validity of the bishop who consecrated the priest.  It seems that in this case, there are doubts about both the priest and the bishop, therefore evidence and an explanation is doubly important.
    .
    It seems to me there is a third issue, one which applies to all "mainstream" ordinations.
    .
    I have seen sedevacantist priests questioning the validity of other priests solely on the basis of the date of their ordination when it was under the local diocese. If they were ordained after 1969 these sedes presume it was invalid because of the change in the form of priestly ordination in 1969. 
    .
    Similarly, for episcopal consecrations they draw the line at 1968 because the form was changed in that year. Pope Francis is therefore subject to criticism on BOTH counts because he was ordained a priest after 1969 and consecrated a bishop after 1968. Consequently the CMRI (as well as others) clerics claim that he is not a pope because he is not a bishop nor is he even a priest.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #68 on: November 16, 2017, 02:58:11 PM »
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  • Until anyone here has inquired answers of the new priest, most of what is said here remains speculation. While there is serious doubt about the bishop because he is a sedevacantist, there very will could be more to know before drawing conclusions.
    An accurate observation but there is not doubt about a Bishop because he is sedvacantist, there would be doubt if his orders were supect of invalidity.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #69 on: November 16, 2017, 04:04:30 PM »
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  • This is one priest who is apparently going back to Africa to minister, What about all of the indult priests whose ordaining Bishops might be invalid? Many traditionalists find these men to be an interchangeable options with the SSPX for the sacraments. No one seems to be at all concerned about this.

    Is it only those individuals who have had any relationship to Boston KY. who rate such demanding scrutiny?

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #70 on: November 16, 2017, 04:12:27 PM »
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  • .
    It seems to me there is a third issue, one which applies to all "mainstream" ordinations.
    .
    I have seen sedevacantist priests questioning the validity of other priests solely on the basis of the date of their ordination when it was under the local diocese. If they were ordained after 1969 these sedes presume it was invalid because of the change in the form of priestly ordination in 1969.
    .
    Similarly, for episcopal consecrations they draw the line at 1968 because the form was changed in that year. Pope Francis is therefore subject to criticism on BOTH counts because he was ordained a priest after 1969 and consecrated a bishop after 1968. Consequently the CMRI (as well as others) clerics claim that he is not a pope because he is not a bishop nor is he even a priest.
    .
    That is certainly an issue. A man who the SSPX factions all unswervingly proclaim is the Pope of the Catholic Church and yet they have not seen fit to investigate whether or not his orders are valid. Why has this not been researched thoroughly as the whole of Christendom has the right to know with certainty if the head of the Church is even a valid cleric?


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #71 on: November 16, 2017, 04:20:10 PM »
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  • Let me try my hand at the "to what extent" question-- it's a good one.  The same extent that we ask questions about Francis from Nigeria applies to all traditional clergy, as far as I'm concerned.

    Let's say Francis comes on CI and says he's been ordained a priest by a traditional bishop-- say, Bishop Pivarunas (not going to say Fellay or Williamson because that's too charged-- we'll use an "outsider" for the example).  We say, "let's see the proof."  He provides a certificate, or a picture.  Is that that?

    It is if we've independently verified that Pivarunas is a Bishop. And we have.  He publicly (i.e., there's certificates, witnesses, etc. available for anyone who looks into it) received the episcopacy from Bishop Moises Carmona.  He was ordained to the priesthood (again with the necessary proofs) by Bishop George Musey.  Then we can (and should) ask the same question about Carmona.  Again, we find that in the early eighties he was consecrated by Archbishop Thuc in a small ceremony, but with witnesses and the required docuмentation.

    And all doubts are resolved.  It wasn't hard, either, because a) the lineage is fairly direct and b) those involved have made sure that the information is out there

    All we're doing is asking the same questions of Francis and his lineage.  The problem of the extent of this inquiry is hardly our fault; it's owed to the fact that there are half a dozen relatively obscure (especially for English-speaking Catholics) Thuc "sub consecrations" before one gets to Adamson and Francis. 



    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #72 on: November 16, 2017, 05:02:44 PM »
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  • Nice thinly-veiled personal attack against several CI members (and especially the moderator, who allows this thread), but no thanks.

    The fact is that it is physically impossible to "detract" a priest about this particular matter: the question of his validity.

    The validity of a priest is a PUBLIC matter, according to the Catholic Church. It is not:

    * a private matter
    * none of most people's business
    * something we should not speculate about
    * something we should give "benefit of the doubt" on
    * something we should presume, until proven otherwise
    * possible matter for detraction
    * possible matter for slander (now we're *lying* about him, just by asking for proof of his ordination!?)

    And we haven't declared his ordination invalid. Merely stated the FACT that he has no sufficiently proven or provided the validity of his ordaining bishop.

    "Thuc-line bishop" is not, and CANNOT BE, an instant ticket to validity. Even the most die-hard sedevacantist has to agree with that. One might as well say, "Independent priest? he's surely valid then!"
    There is simply too much variety in that category.
    No personal attack intended.
    Fr. M provided his lineage and the lineage of the ordination bishop, all the way back to a.b. Thuc.  
    I just don't see that it is reasonable for fr. M to have to provide a copy of the ordaining bishops consecration paperwork.  

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #73 on: November 16, 2017, 05:15:30 PM »
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  • Let me try my hand at the "to what extent" question-- it's a good one.  The same extent that we ask questions about Francis from Nigeria applies to all traditional clergy, as far as I'm concerned.

    Let's say Francis comes on CI and says he's been ordained a priest by a traditional bishop-- say, Bishop Pivarunas (not going to say Fellay or Williamson because that's too charged-- we'll use an "outsider" for the example).  We say, "let's see the proof."  He provides a certificate, or a picture.  Is that that?

    It is if we've independently verified that Pivarunas is a Bishop. And we have.  He publicly (i.e., there's certificates, witnesses, etc. available for anyone who looks into it) received the episcopacy from Bishop Moises Carmona.  He was ordained to the priesthood (again with the necessary proofs) by Bishop George Musey.  Then we can (and should) ask the same question about Carmona.  Again, we find that in the early eighties he was consecrated by Archbishop Thuc in a small ceremony, but with witnesses and the required docuмentation.

    And all doubts are resolved.  It wasn't hard, either, because a) the lineage is fairly direct and b) those involved have made sure that the information is out there.  

    All we're doing is asking the same questions of Francis and his lineage.  The problem of the extent of this inquiry is hardly our fault; it's owed to the fact that there are half a dozen relatively obscure (especially for English-speaking Catholics) Thuc "sub consecrations" before one gets to Adamson and Francis.
    Thank you for the explanation.
    I guess I am just stupid.
    I generally believe when a priest tells me his lineage and I can verify it online, without photos, photos of docuмents, or witnesses, that he is a priest.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #74 on: November 16, 2017, 08:04:35 PM »
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  • This is one priest who is apparently going back to Africa to minister, What about all of the indult priests whose ordaining Bishops might be invalid? Many traditionalists find these men to be an interchangeable options with the SSPX for the sacraments. No one seems to be at all concerned about this.

    Is it only those individuals who have had any relationship to Boston KY. who rate such demanding scrutiny?

    Yes, just Boston, KY. You know, the one I have a grudge against. It's all about my hatred for Fr. Pfeiffer and his organization.
    ::)

    Is that really how you thought I would answer?

    Seriously, it applies to everyone in all groups, without exception. Anyone with doubtful orders is a problem for Catholics. Rule Number One in Traditional Catholicism is "make sure your priest was validly ordained". That's the reason we left behind the Novus Ordo, for crying out loud! The uncertainty, the dangers, the defects. And we have a certain option, which we are obligated to seek out at all costs -- even to the point of staying home if all we can find is Novus Ordo. We have an obligation to not put our Faith in danger. And we have a right to certainty when it comes to Mass and the Sacraments.

    As a matter of fact, you're dead wrong that "no one has a problem with this". That is in fact my main problem with the Indult. The problem with Indult (and even Rome-approved groups) is the FORMATION of the priests. In the case of Summorum Pontificuм/Indult, almost without exception, you're talking about a Novus Ordo priest who learned to say the Latin Mass on his own. That does NOT make a "Traditional Catholic" priest.

    An expression comes to mind: "Lipstick on a pig". Also, "A donkey in a suit is still a donkey."

    I actually can't believe how many SSPX-raised Catholics "don't get it" when it comes to Tradition, and what the SSPX was all about. I know of several families who now attend the INDULT (not ICK, FSSP, or some "dedicated" pseudo-trad organization). The priests there are varying degrees of unsuitable, especially compared with any SSPX priest (yes, even today!) And yet -- a few families think they are equivalent.
    Such people I would describe as "Latin Mass" Catholics, but not Traditional Catholic.
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