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This is one of the issues on which I disagree with Bishop Williamson. 2,000 warnings is not a good sign. Our Lady has never been known to be loquacious. Many of these alleged apparitions entailed trivial chit-chat.
Not only has the Church not approved the visions, but they were actually rejected by the local bishop and his successors.
Garabandal was clearly diabolical, and I'm extremely confused about why Bishop Williamson doesn't see that:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html
When I was at STAS, Bishop Williamson invited me and about 2-3 others to sit and watch a video about Garabandal. I was not convinced then, and subsequent research into it has led me to conclude that it was a diabolical hoax.
A major threshold issue is whether or not the "Warning of Garabandal" is actually authentic (i.e., true) or not. His Excellency clearly states that there is a high probability that the Warning is authentic, but how strong a case, if any does he make for such authenticity? There are those who agree with Bp. Williamson's assertion of a high probability that the Warning is authentic and a good number of people -- if we are to believe the many super-pro Garabandal assertions on the Internet -- go even further in their stated beliefs of an even stronger degree of certainty about the Warning. Then there are those like myself who believe that there is a high probability if not more that the Warning is not authentic/true at all.
DCCLXXXII #782
July 9, 2022
WORLDWIDE WARNING
Almighty God is good, and plans to tell,
Once more, how to avoid our self-made Hell.
At the risk of laying before a number of readers a matter of which they are already well aware, let these “Comments” present the Warning of Garabandal, because of the high probability that that Warning is authentic, and that it is therefore going to affect every human being alive, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, with a decisive effect upon their eternal salvation or damnation.
This is one of the issues on which I disagree with Bishop Williamson. 2,000 warnings is not a good sign. Our Lady has never been known to be loquacious. Many of these alleged apparitions entailed trivial chit-chat.
Not only has the Church not approved the visions, but they were actually rejected by the local bishop and his successors.
Garabandal was clearly diabolical, and I'm extremely confused about why Bishop Williamson doesn't see that:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html
When I was at STAS, Bishop Williamson invited me and about 2-3 others to sit and watch a video about Garabandal. I was not convinced then, and subsequent research into it has led me to conclude that it was a diabolical hoax.
Not just Garabandal, but also Poem of the Man-God by Maria Valtorta which was placed in the Index.I agree totally. I think there is something diabolical about Garabandal and I think neither it or the Poem of the Man-God are from God.
Re: Poem of the Man-GodThe bolded is a common quote, but beyond an attestation of the purported statement by the Pope there is nothing else that corroborates it. Further, the Secretary of the Holy Office in 1959 was Cardinal Ottaviani. You can pretend it was John XXIII's heretical doing, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I believe there are also some other apocryphal tales (akin to the Pius XII approval one) on earlier rejections of Man-God as well.
According to Rookey, at the meeting Pius (Xll) reportedly told the three priests; "Publish this work as it is. There is no need to give an opinion about its origin, whether it be extraordinary or not. Who reads it, will understand. One hears of many visions and revelations. I will not say they are all authentic; but there are some of which it could be said that they are."[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poem_of_the_Man-God#cite_note-FOOTNOTERookey,_p._2-10)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poem_of_the_Man-God#cite_note-Pacwa-12) In his 8 December 1978 account of the events concerning Maria Valtorta's writings, Berti summarized the Pope's words as "Publish this work as it is." (wikipedia)
The book was placed on the Forbidden index by "Pope" John Xlll in 1960. Take that as you wish.
The bolded is a common quote, but beyond an attestation of the purported statement by the Pope there is nothing else that corroborates it. Further, the Secretary of the Holy Office in 1959 was Cardinal Ottaviani. You can pretend it was John XXIII's heretical doing, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I believe there are also some other apocryphal tales (akin to the Pius XII approval one) on earlier rejections of Man-God as well.Oh- I did not know about Cardinal Ottaviani re: poem of the Man-God. That certainly changes things
(Card. Ottaviani appointed 7 Nov 1959; Man-God officially censured Dec 1959)
Oh- I did not know about Cardinal Ottaviani re: poem of the Man-God. That certainly changes things
I’m wondering how much Ottaviani had to do with it: Was it condemned by his personal signature, or did he just move into the job and inherit someone else’s nearly completed decision, which was then decreed by underlings while he was head?
Just asking, because it seems like a matter that would be way down the priorities list for a man who, being only one month on the job, would still be arranging the furniture in his new office.
Also of note was the fact that, according to this Angelus article, Ottaviani was increasingly isolated within the Holy Office upon the death of Pius XII, and practically blind.
https://angeluspress.org/blogs/blog/bastion-of-the-faith-mdash-cardinal-ottaviani
These two circuмstances open the possibility that, on the one hand, decisions could have been made which he did not agree with, or about which he was uninformed, or that he may have signed something without knowing what it was (ie., deceived).
I don’t say he didn’t condemn the Poem. I merely say the fact that the Poem was condemned during his term as head of the Holy Office may or may not be indicative of his support, and that anyone opining on the matter should be prepared to address the concerns I have mentioned, if they want to make a stronger historical argument.
https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/
What should we make of the book The Poem of the Man God by Maria Valtorta?
To answer to questions which were asked of us about Maria Valtorta, we publish here a text coming from Le Sel de la terre n° 7 (doctrinal review of the Dominicans of Avrillé).
For more details, you can consult the book of Fr Herrbach: “Des visions sur l’Évangile” on the website: http://www.clovis-diffusion.com/ (http://www.clovis-diffusion.com/)
Maria Valtorta died in 1961 “in an incomprehensible physical isolation” (in an insane asylum).
Her principal work The Poem of the Man God, which was written in the years from 1943 to 1947, took up 10,000 pages of note-books.
Her confessor Father Migliorini, claims to have been received in audience with Pope Pius XII alongside Father Berti, in February 1948 and the Pope is supposed to have said to them to publish this work, adding ” Whoever reads it, will understand“. This oral authorisation of the Pope seems very unlikely: The Pope could only have given the authorisation of the work if he had read it and been assured of its orthodoxy; but how would the Pope have found the time to read these 10,000 pages? This authorisation appears even less credible when the Holy Office forbade the work definitively (with no possible correction) one year later in February 1949. The first four volumes were however published without Imprimatur from 1956 to 1959. On the 16th of December 1959, the edited books were put on The Index [Editor: The Index of Forbidden Books]. The Osservatore Romano (official newspaper of the Vatican) published the placement on The Index accompanied with an article justifying the condemnation. Here are some extracts:
“The four Gospels present us with a Jesus humble and full of reserve; His speaking is sober, incisive but supremely efficacious. On the contrary in this sort of romantic History [Editor: i.e. The Poem of the Man God], Jesus is excessively loquacious and resembles a man of propaganda, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and Son of God, and to give out lessons of theology, using the same terms that a professor of theology would use today.
In the Gospel narratives, we admire the humility and the silence of the Mother of Jesus. On the contrary for the author of this work, the most blessed Virgin Mary with the talkativeness of a modern lawyer, is always present everywhere and always ready to give lessons of Marian theology, perfectly up to date with the latest current studies of specialists on the matter…
Some scenes are rather indecent and make us think of scenes from a modern novel. We will only give a few examples, such as the confession made to Mary by a certain Aglae, a woman of ill-repute (1st volume, p.790 and after1 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-1-2127)); the not very edifying narrative from pages 887 and onwards in the first volume; a ballet executed in an immodest fashion before Pilate at the pretorium (volume 4, p. 75) etc…
To finish let us point out another strange and imprecise affirmation where it is said of the Madonna, “You, all the time that you will be on this earth, you will be the second after Peter, in the ecclesiastical hierarchy. [It is we who underline, says the review]”
Here are some examples of the errors and improprieties of this book:One can note numerous contradictions with the Gospel, for example:
- Our Lord thinks that words tire now and we must have recourse to visions… of Maria Valtorta;
- The tree of life in the terrestrial paradise is only a symbol;
- The sin of Adam and Eve consisted in the use of marriage in a spirit of lust;
- Saint Anne gave birth without pain;
- Our Lady brags of her humility and her calm;
- She says that she redeemed women through her maternity;
- She said that she saw God at her creation;
- Satan became flesh in the form of Judas.
Let us finish by citing a talk by Archbishop Lefebvre at a retreat, where he expresses his reserve regarding Maria Valtorta:
- Our Lord is supposed to have sucked with avidity the vinegar given by the soldier;
- On the Cross Our Lord did not cease to cry out “Mommy!” and she replied: “Yes, my treasure, I am here”;
- Our Lady gets angry, cries out and becomes “almost” delirious after the death of her Son;
- and this is not to mention the numerous sensualities which are spread throughout the work.
Quote“It is better for us […] not to spend too much time on the material details of the life of Our Lord. […] These books which present themselves as revelations of the Life of Our Lord, in my opinion, can be a danger, precisely because they represent Our Lord in a too concrete manner, too much in the details of His life. I am thinking of course of Maria Valtorta. And perhaps for some this reading can do good, it can bring them close to Our Lord, to try to imagine what would have been the life of the Apostles with Our Lord, the life at Nazareth, the life of Our Lord as the visits of the cities of Israel.Last advice : Rather than read these novels where errors abound, it would be better to read Holy Scripture with good commentary based on the Fathers of the Church3 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-3-2127), or even good lives of the saints4 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-4-2127).
But there is a danger, a great danger; that is to humanize too much, to concretize too much, and to not sufficiently show the face of God, in this Life of Our Lord. This is the danger. I do not know if we should recommend so much to people the reading of these books, if they are not forewarned. I do not know if that would raise them up and make them know Our Lord, such as He was, such as He is, such as we should know Him and believe Him to be.2 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-2-2127)
(From Le Sel de la terre, n° 7)
- These references correspond to the edition published at that time in Italian. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-1-2127)
- Retreat preached in september 1986, fourth instruction. Father Emily cites, at the end of his work, a part of this testimony, as well as an extract of a letter of Archbishop Lefebvre which goes along the same lines. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-2-2127)
- For example, The Great life of Jesus Christ, by Ludolphe le Chartreux or the commentaries of Bossuet. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-3-2127)
- The lives of the Saints, except in the case of a bad biography, make us remain in the real rather than depart into the imaginary, as is the case of these “visions” . The lives of Saints have what is needed to nourish the imagination, the heart and the intelligence of all Christians, even the most simple. Even today, one can find good illustrated lives of the saints. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-4-2127)
Those are very interesting questions, Sean, but the condemnation of the work precedes Cdl. Ottaviani's tenure as Secretary of the Holy Office.
(There was a thread where many of the details were examined, but I think it was deleted in the purge of XavierSem works.)
I did find this still extant though:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta/msg485944/#msg485944
Last advice : Rather than read these novels where errors abound, it would be better to read Holy Scripture with good commentary based on the Fathers of the Church3 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-3-2127), or even good lives of the saints4 (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-bottom-4-2127).
(From Le Sel de la terre, n° 7)
- These references correspond to the edition published at that time in Italian. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-1-2127)
- Retreat preached in september 1986, fourth instruction. Father Emily cites, at the end of his work, a part of this testimony, as well as an extract of a letter of Archbishop Lefebvre which goes along the same lines. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-2-2127)
- For example, The Great life of Jesus Christ, by Ludolphe le Chartreux or the commentaries of Bossuet. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-3-2127)
- The lives of the Saints, except in the case of a bad biography, make us remain in the real rather than depart into the imaginary, as is the case of these “visions” . The lives of Saints have what is needed to nourish the imagination, the heart and the intelligence of all Christians, even the most simple. Even today, one can find good illustrated lives of the saints. (https://dominicansavrille.us/what-should-we-make-of-the-book-the-poem-of-the-man-god-by-maria-valtorta-2/#easy-footnote-4-2127)
Whatever happened to the expected miracle of the return of Joey Lomangino's sight...before he died....who died and never had his sight restored?
Is this to me?No, it's about Garabandal. I'll edit the other post.
If so, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
If it’s something in the Poem, and it is directed to me, then I’m really confused, since I’ve never read it, and do not defend it.
The book was placed on the Forbidden index by "Pope" John XXlll in 1960. Take that as you wish.Not certain how to take it. In fact, I'm not sure why Roncalli took the name of an earlier antipope. Are you?
Re: Garabandal.....Whatever happened to the expected miracle of the return of Joey Lomangino's sight...before he died....who died and never had his sight restored?Yeah- there are a lot of questions here. Joey said that Padre Pio told him he would have his sight returned before he died- sigh.