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Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)  (Read 11834 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2024, 06:52:05 PM »
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    And it is clearly not required by Canon 188 that the heretic holds the position "tenaciously."
    Ridiculous.  You need to have some common sense.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #121 on: January 19, 2024, 07:34:17 PM »
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  • Ridiculous.  You need to have some common sense.

    Sorry, your one-liners are not clear. Do you claim it is "common sense" that Jorge Mario Bergoglio should be accepted as a legitimate Pope, the Holy Father, with all of the authority that office comes with, because we cannot prove that he doesn't hold a position "tenaciously?" What are you saying exactly?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #122 on: January 19, 2024, 08:06:26 PM »
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    Sorry, your one-liners are not clear.
    It's ridiculous that you're playing Supreme Canon Lawyer, and interpreting everything to condemn others. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #123 on: January 19, 2024, 08:31:42 PM »
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  • It's ridiculous that you're playing Supreme Canon Lawyer, and interpreting everything to condemn others.

    Since you readily admit your ignorance of Canon Law, why do you constantly jump into these discussions and make nasty ad hominem comments?

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #124 on: January 20, 2024, 08:44:45 AM »
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  • CK, why have you resorted to using the arguments of a doctoral dissertation to make your case? We have Canon Law itself and St. Robert Bellarmine as the authorities.

    Regardless, of what Fr. McDevitt's opinion might have been, we have the meaning of words to take into account and logic to guide us. The word in Canon 1325 that you are fixated on is "pertinaciter." You can read about that word on this page:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pertinaciter
    Note that the word is derived from the root word pertinax, which you can read about on this page:

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pertinax#Latin


    You will note that all of these definitions relate to holding a position "tenaciously" and "persevering" in that position over a period of time.

    But we have already established that the Canon 188 "loss of office" occurs "immediately" (see Bordoni quote), not over time. And it is clearly not required by Canon 188 that the heretic holds the position "tenaciously." It is only required that he expresses the heresy "manifestly," "evidently," "unambiguously." And it is by that fact itself (ipso facto) that the office is lost.

    Logically, the concepts "immediately" and "ipso facto" are not compatible with the concepts expressed in the words "tenaciously" and "perseveringly." Therefore, "pertinacity," in the defined meaning of that word, is contrary to the sense of Canon 188.

    Angelus, thank you, but I am done with this discussion.  I have provided sufficient evidence that "pertinacity" is required for Canon 188.4 to take effect when the public defection from the Catholic Faith takes the form of heresy.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #125 on: January 20, 2024, 10:23:24 AM »
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    I have provided sufficient evidence that "pertinacity" is required for Canon 188.4 to take effect when the public defection from the Catholic Faith takes the form of heresy.
    I agree.  Without pertinacity/obstinacy, you can’t have formal heresy, only material.  


    Angelus’ reading of this stuff is missing the forest for the trees. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #126 on: January 20, 2024, 10:26:20 AM »
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    Since you readily admit your ignorance of Canon Law
    I admit I’m not a canon lawyer but I do have some experience with law.  Your reading of legal texts is not comprehensive enough, but too focused. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #127 on: January 20, 2024, 11:59:09 AM »
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  • I admit I’m not a canon lawyer but I do have some experience with law.  Your reading of legal texts is not comprehensive enough, but too focused.

    Again, I ask you. Do you claim it is "common sense" that Jorge Mario Bergoglio should be accepted as a legitimate Pope, the Holy Father, with all of the authority that office comes with, simply because we cannot prove that he doesn't hold a position "tenaciously?" What are you saying exactly?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #128 on: January 20, 2024, 12:24:28 PM »
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  • This is a "gotcha" question and you know it.  It's an either-or, all or nothing, black or white view of the papal crisis.  Go read +Bellarmine's debates with John of St Thomas, Cajetan, etc.  There's a lot of layers to all of this.  It's very complex.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #129 on: January 20, 2024, 04:35:33 PM »
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  • This is a "gotcha" question and you know it.  It's an either-or, all or nothing, black or white view of the papal crisis.  Go read +Bellarmine's debates with John of St Thomas, Cajetan, etc.  There's a lot of layers to all of this.  It's very complex.

    You still want to make this all about "theological opinions" and debates from the 1500s. That's wrong. The Code of Canon Law incorporated the essential elements of Bellarmine's and Cajetan's arguments. If you analyze Canon Law, you will find that both perspectives have their place at different stages of the heresy/excommunication process.

    Bellarmine's position is primary. A public, manifest (ipso facto) heretic, loses, by the law itself (ipso jure), his office without any declaration needed by any Church authority (Canon 188). The manifest, public heretic Pope loses his See, immediately from the perspective of the law. At that point, the person, who has "lost" (even if temporarily and merely ipso jure) the Chair of Peter, can be judged by a Church tribunal, overcoming the limitation of Canon 1556.

    Cajetan's position is secondary, but relevant to the entire process. The public manifest heretic is not finally "deposed" of "the office itself" until he is finally condemned/banned/vitandus (Canon 2266). The process for this follows Titus 3:10-11 and can be found in outline in Canon 2314. But a person who has "lost" his Papal office because of ipso facto heresy is excommunicated with a "minor excommunication" latae sententiae.

    Check the Canons I have referred to. Read Bellarmine and Cajetan with that in mind. You will see that both positions are in Canon Law in their rightful order.

    https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #130 on: January 20, 2024, 10:10:32 PM »
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    You still want to make this all about "theological opinions" and debates from the 1500s. That's wrong.
    My point in mentioning the debates from the 1500s is to remind you that these theologians distinguished between the spiritual/temporal papal authority, and his Divine/Human offices.  I've never read where you mention these.  You argue either the pope occupies the seat, or not.  He either has authority or not.  This is too simplistic.  The pope has a human/govt office and a Divine/spiritual office.  Different excommunications/canons pertain to either the spiritual or govt.  Or both.  But not always both at the same time.



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    The Code of Canon Law incorporated the essential elements of Bellarmine's and Cajetan's arguments.

    Nonsense.  Canon Law's primary purpose is to facilitate the administration of the Church's govt.  We've never had a heretic pope before the 1900s.  Let's not pretend that +Bellarmine's views were exhaustive on such a question...he didn't even consider a heretic pope a realistic possibility.


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    If you analyze Canon Law, you will find that both perspectives have their place at different stages of the heresy/excommunication process.
    Have you ever asked a canon lawyer about your views?  Honest question.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #131 on: January 20, 2024, 10:44:49 PM »
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  • My point in mentioning the debates from the 1500s is to remind you that these theologians distinguished between the spiritual/temporal papal authority, and his Divine/Human offices.  I've never read where you mention these.  You argue either the pope occupies the seat, or not.  He either has authority or not.  This is too simplistic.  The pope has a human/govt office and a Divine/spiritual office.  Different excommunications/canons pertain to either the spiritual or govt.  Or both.  But not always both at the same time.



    Nonsense.  Canon Law's primary purpose is to facilitate the administration of the Church's govt.  We've never had a heretic pope before the 1900s.  Let's not pretend that +Bellarmine's views were exhaustive on such a question...he didn't even consider a heretic pope a realistic possibility.

    Have you ever asked a canon lawyer about your views?  Honest question.

    Distinguishing aspects of spiritual/temporal power are not relevant to the "loss of office" for manifest public heresy. Those are theological concepts (important in their own sphere) that are beyond the scope of the practical situation that the law is dealing with here. 

    Yes, and removing a heretic Pope from office will "facilitate the administration of the Church's govt." Which is precisely why Canon 188 exists. But more importantly right now, it will help Catholics understand that the guy-in-white is THE FALSE PROPHET. He is leading them to Hell. But people like you tell them that he is the Pope, the Holy Father. The guy is not even a Catholic. He's a communist and you prop him up with your love of "complications."

    I have not discussed this particular issue with a canon lawyer. But other issues, yes, I have discussed my views with a canon lawyer, who is a judge on an archdiocesan tribunal.

    Instead of worrying about credentials, why don't you try to deal with the law and the logical argument presented, using your God-given reason? Did you trust your doctor when he told you to get your Covid vaccine?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #132 on: July 05, 2024, 10:02:19 AM »
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #133 on: July 05, 2024, 10:28:59 AM »
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    Instead of worrying about credentials, why don't you try to deal with the law and the logical argument presented, using your God-given reason?
    An untrained layman can only understand canon law up to a point.  "Reason" is not sufficient to fully grasp all the nuances of the legal system.


    I can read 10 books on how to rebuild a car motor, but that will only get me so far.  If i've never worked in a mechanics shop to ACTUALLY rebuild a motor, then I won't be able to do it.  "On the job training" and certain "industry knowledge" is essential.

    :facepalm:  I can't believe you are actually arguing that a person will no legal training can fully understand canon law.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #134 on: July 05, 2024, 01:06:38 PM »
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  • Followup to "VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST?" ... "VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST!"