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Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)  (Read 11737 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2024, 05:58:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    Canon 188 (1983 CIC 194) Cross-Refs.: 1917 CIC 156, 1444,2168, 2314, 2379, 2388

    Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation
    recognized by the law itself if a cleric:

    4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;
    As Plenus Veneter said, tacit resignation needs to be defined per canon law, not according to your private understanding.


    All the V2 popes have claimed they are still catholic, therefore there is no tacit resignation.  And they would all say they have not publicly defected from the Faith.  So it would be up to Church officials to make a decision.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #91 on: January 17, 2024, 06:07:27 PM »
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  • And they would all say they have not publicly defected from the Faith. 

    Would you expect otherwise?  Do you think they're just misguided or badly trained? 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #92 on: January 17, 2024, 06:14:40 PM »
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  • Ok, but something serious like 'tacit resignation' is not decided by public opinion.  The Church isn't a democracy.

    If you think otherwise, then this leads to chaos.  Some little old lady could go around telling people that "I heard the Diamond Bros say something heretical, therefore they defected from the Faith, so they're no longer catholic."  What's to stop any catholic from claiming that another catholic had 'tacitly resigned'?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #93 on: January 17, 2024, 06:24:02 PM »
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  • Your popes have been worshiping Pachamama, etc. and the Vatican now officially blesses ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ couples - just not marriages, wink, wink. 

    The barometer, however, is what a 'little old lady' thinks/said about the Dimonds? 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #94 on: January 17, 2024, 06:33:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    Your popes
    You miss the point completely.  The V2 popes may not be true popes; we must wait for the Church to declare it officially.

    You can privately decide all you want, but your decision is meaningless.  Their heresies remain, and still ruin souls, despite your rejection of their office.  Being a sede solves nothing, without a Church decision.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #95 on: January 17, 2024, 06:43:31 PM »
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  • 1) You miss the point completely. 

    2) You can privately decide all you want, but your decision is meaningless.  Their heresies remain, and still ruin souls, despite your rejection of their office.  Being a sede solves nothing, without a Church decision.

    1) Got it.  But did you hear that from a little old lady?  We've been waiting for that Official Proclamation from Pax and now that it's arrived, we can all breathe easy.

    2) Just curious what you think R'n'R might actually be solving?  Putting an end to Pachamama worship and a bastard mass?

    I really do think it's time Burke, et al, sent in some more hard hitting stuff so Francis can come to his senses.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #96 on: January 17, 2024, 06:50:00 PM »
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  • Neither Sedeism nor R&R solves anything.  The crisis remains.  That’s the point. So it’s a waste of time to run around arguing with other Trads about the popes’ status.  

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #97 on: January 17, 2024, 06:56:10 PM »
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  • Neither Sedeism nor R&R solves anything.  The crisis remains.  That’s the point. So it’s a waste of time to run around arguing with other Trads about the popes’ status. 

    It simply acknowledges what we're witnessing.  Badly trained men pushing out bad doctrine, bad mass, bad blessings, etc.  Ergo, they must be true pontiffs just misinformed.  I get that.  I used to love reading Eleison Comments myself. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #98 on: January 17, 2024, 07:14:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    It simply acknowledges what we're witnessing.  Badly trained men pushing out bad doctrine, bad mass, bad blessings, etc.
    All Trads acknowledge the V2 popes are heretical.  And they have from the beginning.  There have been Sede-Trads and non-Sede-Trads since the 70s.  What has changed?  Nothing.

    Going the further step, and kicking heretic popes out of office is unnecessary and unauthorized.  It might make one feel better, but it doesn't change any aspect of the crisis, nor does it in any way fix the problem. 

    Going another step further, and fighting other Trads about kicking a pope from office, is just extremism.  And it further adds to the chaos of the crisis.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #99 on: January 17, 2024, 07:38:00 PM »
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  • Someone who remains in office has not tacitly resigned. If he joins the Mormons, that would be tacit resignation.
    Material heresy by the pope continuing in his office is not what canonists understand by public defection from the faith.

    Which is precisely why you are interpreting the phrase "tacitly resignation" improperly. We must use logic and read the context of the words.

    Canon 188 sets the conditions for a legally-forced [ipso jure] "loss of ecclesiastical office" [de amissione officiorum ecclesiasticorum]. That is the name that section of Canon Law. The person passively "loses the office," not through some kind of personal act of resignation. This "loss of office" is legally-forced on the officeholder by the fact of his public heretical profession, which is incompatible with holding the Catholic Faith.

    The flip-side of the "loss of office" is that the "office is vacant" [officia vacant] at the same moment that the loss occurs. The Latin word "vacant" should help you understand where the concept of sede vacante comes from.

    This "loss of office"/"vacancy of the office" happens "by the law itself" [ipso jure] "upon the fact" [ipso facto] of a defection from the Catholic Faith (i.e., apostasy, heresy, or schism). This means that the mechanism relates to the objective contradiction of a law with a fact. Any human using logic can see the contradiction. That contradiction triggers the automatic "loss of office."

    Finally, the words "without any declaration" [sine ulla declaratione] has the same essential meaning as "latae sententiae." It means automatic, or "sentence already given." There is no need to wait for a sentence or judgment or declaration by any one. Anyone who knows the law and perceives the heresy can make the judgment.

    Here is Canon 188 again, in English and Latin:


    Quote
    Canon 188: Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: ... 4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;

    Canon 188: Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ... 4º A fide catholica publice defecerit;



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #100 on: January 17, 2024, 08:02:47 PM »
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  • We agree that no formal, official determination of "pertinacity" is necessary for automatic excommunication for ipso facto heresy, right? That is the type of "pertinacity" I was referring to.

    We agree.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #101 on: January 17, 2024, 08:06:44 PM »
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  • CK, I agree completely with the bolded sentence above about Bellarmine's position. And Bellarmine's position agrees with 1917 Canon Law.

    A "legally-forced" (ipso jure) "loss of office," does not "require admonitions." Canon 188 says that it requires nothing more than "the fact itself" (ipso facto) of a "defection from the Catholic Faith." Here is Canon 188 in English and Latin:

    Why am I certain that no official "admonition" is required for the ipso jure "loss of office?" Because Canon 188 says that this "loss of office" happens "upon the fact and without any declaration." The "declaration" mentioned there is the same "declaration" mentioned in Canon 2314, where the law states that the "declaration" comes after the heretic does not "respect warnings." Canon 188 is saying that a "declaration" is not needed for the ipso jure and ipso facto "loss of office." I agree with Canon 188. Fr. Kramer seems to agree with that. Bellamine seems to agrees with that.

    The concept of ipso facto LOGICALLY EXCLUDES the need for any additional steps like official "admonitions." Any official "admonitions" would be additional steps to allow the competent authority to legally take the final action of ultimately condemning/anathematizing the heretic. Those additional steps (the official "admonitions") are not needed for the ipso jure "loss of office" which is caused by an ipso facto "defection," according to Canon 188.

    My entire point is that Canon Law, which binds every Catholic, already includes the correct understanding of how the automatic "loss of office" occurs. It is not a mere "theological opinion." It is the law. The Church has spoken.

    Since any heretic incurs automatic (ipso facto) excommunication (Canon 2314 §1.1), he is immediately "separated from the Church" to such a degree that if he held an office before, he automatically loses the office by professing heresy. Canonically, he is given the opportunity to come back into the Church, but if an only if he "respects warnings." If he does not respect two official warnings, then he is "declared" after the first official warning and "condemned" after the second official warning. But he is "separated from the Church" and loses any ecclesiastical office upon ipso facto profession of heresy, before any warnings happen.

    Are we in agreement on this?

    Do we agree that "separation from the Church" for a pope (if it were hypothetically possible for a pope to become a heretic) means that he becomes ontologically a non-pope?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #102 on: January 17, 2024, 08:09:34 PM »
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  • In Synopsis Theologiae Dogmaticae (1897), Tanquerey explains that in the extraordinary case of a heretical Pope or multiple doubtful Popes, begins by noting that during the First Vatican Council, Bishop Gasser took the occasion to discussed the hypothesis of a Pope falling into heresy, which was considered unlikely, but not impossible. He then explains that if such were to happen, “he would either be ipso facto deprived of the Pontificate, or the body of bishops could (indirectly) depose him, as in the case of doubtful pope: for in these extraordinary cases, the authority devolves to the episcopal body.”[42]
     

    In Tractatus De Romano Pontifice (1891), Palmieri explains that it is God, not man, who deprives a heretical Pope of his jurisdiction, but says it doesn’t happen until the Church declares him a heretic. He then references Suarez as the authority for his position:
    "If a Pope is obstinate in his heresy—obstinate, I say: for, if he heeds the Church’s admonitions, nothing further is necessary—such a Pope is deposed, not by man, but by God himself, who takes away the jurisdiction that He had given him; the Church, for her part, only declares the man to be a heretic, and then (ideoque) God deprives him of his jurisdiction." (cf. Suarez, Defensio Fidei Catholicae, lib. iv c. 7 n. 5).
    In the quotation Palmieri referenced, Suarez says, “although in the case of heresy [the Pope] could be deposed, he is in truth not deposed by man but by God himself, after the declaration of a legitimate Council has preceded.” (Defensio Fidei Catholicae, lib. v c 7 n. 5).
     
    In Sacrae Theologiae Summa (1955), Joachim Salaverri teaches the same as Palamerri, and he too references Suarez:
    "Theologians concede that a general Council can licitly declare a Pope heretical, if this case [of a Pope falling into heresy] is possible, but it cannot depose him authoritatively since he is superior to the Council … see Suarez, De fide d.10 s.6."[43]
    The fact that Salaverri means a sitting Pope can be licitly declared a heretic, is evident from the following quotation from Suarez that he referenced to support his position:
    I say thirdly, if a Pope were a heretic and incorrigible, when first, through the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church, a declaratory sentence of the crime is pronounced against him, he ceases to be Pope. This is the common opinion among the doctors. (Suarez, De Fide, disp x, sect. 6.)
    In Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1887), Fr. Smith observes that there are two main opinions concerning how a heretical Pope is deprived of his jurisdiction, and then explains that, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the church, i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.”[44]
    In Summa Apologetica de Ecclesia Catholica (1890), Vincent Groot also teaches that a Pope who falls into heresy is not deprived of his jurisdiction until his heresy is juridically established and declared:
    "In the case of a Pope who is a public, legal, notorious, and contumacious heretic… he would have to be deposed by a council of bishops.  But the deposition would not be an act of jurisdiction, since there is no power greater than the Pope, but a declaratory sentence, by which the fact of heresy is juridically established; and once established, the Pope is believed to be deprived of his dignity by divine law."[45]

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-true-meaning-of-bellarmines-ipso.html


    Oh, no, not Siscoe and Salza again!  I honestly don't want to waste my time with these guys.  Fr. Paul Kramer has thoroughly embarrassed these two laymen and showed their incompetency in his two volumes of To Deceive the Elect.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #103 on: January 17, 2024, 08:13:44 PM »
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  • As Plenus Veneter said, tacit resignation needs to be defined per canon law, not according to your private understanding.


    All the V2 popes have claimed they are still catholic, therefore there is no tacit resignation.  And they would all say they have not publicly defected from the Faith.  So it would be up to Church officials to make a decision.

    Yah, and its up to the Church to make the decision on whether Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Missae are Catholic.  Since all V2 popes said that they are, you cannot say otherwise until further notice.  So go back to the Novus Ordo!

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #104 on: January 17, 2024, 08:39:07 PM »
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  • Do we agree that "separation from the Church" for a pope (if it were hypothetically possible for a pope to become a heretic) means that he becomes ontologically a non-pope?
    CK, your earlier definition of the phrase "ontological Pope" was as follows:

    Quote
    Note:  By "ontological pope", I mean a man upon whom Jesus Christ has conferred the papal munus.

    So, to answer your question, I would say that I agree:

    IF the Pope's intention was really to deny a Church dogma, then he would lose the papal munus because he would be the enemy of Christ.

    BUT IF, INSTEAD, the Pope's intention was not to deny a Church dogma (e.g., an oversight or mistake), then he would not lose the papal munus because it was only an apparent heresy.

    If the former, the Pope would ignore warnings and fail to clarify his statements, like Bergoglio has done. If the latter, he would immediately try to set things right, like John XXII did.

    But, Canon Law says that in either case, upon his public profession of apparent heresy, he legally loses all authority to govern the Church until he recants, clarifies, etc.