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Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)  (Read 11745 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2024, 09:41:43 AM »
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    I am saying the canonical standard is actually lower for the initial "loss" of papal any non-pope office, power, jurisdiction, and legitimacy, according to Canon Law.
    Just to clarify that theologians can't even decide if canon law applies to a pope.  The above certainly applies to any non-papal office.  But we can't say that canon law penalties apply to the pope.  He can dispense with canon law anytime he chooses.  He's above all human laws (which canon law is a human law).


    That's why the debates that +Bellarmine had with all the other educated theologians went on for so long.  It's a complex situation.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #76 on: January 17, 2024, 10:23:08 AM »
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  • Just to clarify that theologians can't even decide if canon law applies to a pope.  The above certainly applies to any non-papal office.  But we can't say that canon law penalties apply to the pope.  He can dispense with canon law anytime he chooses.  He's above all human laws (which canon law is a human law).


    That's why the debates that +Bellarmine had with all the other educated theologians went on for so long.  It's a complex situation.

    You are sadly ignorant of how law, of its nature, works according to Catholic theology. Your expression is in line with a theory of law called "legal positivism." The Catholic Church rejects "legal positivism," preferring instead the Thomistic "higher law," "natural law" basis of all law. 


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #77 on: January 17, 2024, 11:16:38 AM »
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  • You do not understand what I am saying. See the part I have bolded above. I agree 100% with that statement. You are incorrect that I am "not sure of this."

    But you are throwing the word "formal" in there unnecessarily. I am saying the canonical standard is actually lower for the initial "loss" of papal office, power, jurisdiction, and legitimacy, according to Canon Law. The Pope doesn't need to be proven to be a "formal" (i.e., pertinacious) heretic in order to lose those things. The proof of pertinacity comes after the repeated "warnings" by a competent authority. But no warnings are necessary for the initial "loss" of office (Canon 188.4).

    We, you and I, agree that we must act as if Bergoglio not the Pope. We must act as if he has "lost membership in the Church," even if the competent authority has not yet ruled on the finality if that statement. Why must we act this way? Because Canon Law tells us we must act this way. It is not a theological opinion that we can take or leave. We are bound to follow Canon Law.

    P.S. What I am saying agrees with these general principles discussed by John Lane. The only thing, I don't agree with him on is his indicia of heresy and his application of it to certain Popes. On that point, I agree with Fr. Kramer.

    http://www.the-pope.com/contra_objections.html

    Hmm.  Let this percolate.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #78 on: January 17, 2024, 11:42:35 AM »
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  • You don't seem to understand what is meant by formal heresy. It requires pertinacity which requires admonitions from the authority as St Robert Bellarmine himself explains in his fifth opinion. 

     I understand that formal heresy (moral and canonical) requires pertinacity.  I do not agree, however, that it requires admonitions.  St. Robert Bellamarine did not teach this.

    "It is manifestly evident that in the clearly stated context where he speaks of warnings, that Bellarmine is not stating or implying that there is any need for canonical admonitions for a pope to lose office. It was the exponents of Opinion No. 4 who maintained that canonical admonitions are necessary for a pope to be deposed for heresy. Canonical admonitions are proper only to a superior, and are administered by a superior as the initial phase of a penal process. Bellarmine qualifies the sense of the term as he means it to be understood with the words, 'that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious', thereby making it clear that the warnings are not part of a juridical procedure, but only serve the purpose of fraternal correction in order to determine whether or not the pope in question 'ceases by himself to be pope' by his heresy, ipso facto, and not by the ministerial instrumentality of any judgment at the conclusion of an official procedure, whereby the Church authorities would render a judgment on the supreme judge and ruler, and as a consequence of which the heretic Pontiff would only then fall from the Pontificate upon such judgment passed on him by his subjects and inferiors. Ballerini, a follower of Bellarmine’s opinion, understood perfectly that Bellarmine was not speaking of canonical admonitions being necessary in this context when he commented (in the above cited passage), 'In such a crisis for the faith, cannot even inferiors warn their superior by fraternal correction[?]'; and, 'For any person, even a private person, the words of Saint Paul to Titus hold' – and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to administer the warnings would not be an official act of ecclesiastical authority, but 'a duty of charity and not of jurisdiction', for the purpose only of discerning whether or not there is pertinacity, in order to determine whether or not the individual in question is properly a heretic who has fallen from the Pontificate: 'having been once or twice corrected, does not repent, but remains obstinate in a belief contrary to a manifest or defined dogma; by this his public pertinacity which for no reason can be excused, since pertinacity properly pertains to heresy, he declares himself to be a heretic'."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 500-501). Kindle Edition.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #79 on: January 17, 2024, 11:51:54 AM »
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  • Hmm.  Let this percolate.
    :laugh1: I found this funny with the Oapist Coffee ad below it.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #80 on: January 17, 2024, 12:21:16 PM »
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    You are sadly ignorant of how law, of its nature, works according to Catholic theology. Your expression is in line with a theory of law called "legal positivism." The Catholic Church rejects "legal positivism," preferring instead the Thomistic "higher law," "natural law" basis of all law.

    ???


    Pope Saint Boniface I, 418-422: “No one has ever boldly raised his hands against the Apostolic Eminence, from whose judgment it is not permissible to dissent; no one has rebelled against this, who did not wish judgment to be passed upon him.”
    Pope Saint Nicholas I (the great), 858-867: “Neither by the emperor, nor by all the clergy, nor by kings, nor by the people will the judge be judged…. The first See will not be judged by anyone….”

    Pope Saint Leo IX, 1053: “By passing a preceding judgment on the great See, concerning which it is not permitted any man to pass judgment, you have received anathema from all the Fathers of all the venerable Councils…. As the hinge while remaining immovable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’ ”

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302, approved by the Fifth Lateran Council: “Therefore, if the earthly power goes astray, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a lesser spiritual power goes astray, it will be judged by its superior; and truly, if the highest power goes astray, it will not be able to be judged by man, but by God alone. And so the Apostle testifies, ‘The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one.’ [1 Cor 2:15]”

    Pope Gregory XI, 1377, condemned the error: “An ecclesiastic, even the Roman Pontiff, can legitimately be corrected, and even accused, by subjects and lay persons.”

    Canon 1404: The First See is judged by no one.
    [Current Code of Canon Law, 1983]


    Canon 1556: The Primatial See can be judged by no one.
    [Previous Code of Canon Law, 1917]





    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #81 on: January 17, 2024, 03:59:41 PM »
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  • I understand that formal heresy (moral and canonical) requires pertinacity.  I do not agree, however, that it requires admonitions.  St. Robert Bellamarine did not teach this.

    "It is manifestly evident that in the clearly stated context where he speaks of warnings, that Bellarmine is not stating or implying that there is any need for canonical admonitions for a pope to lose office. It was the exponents of Opinion No. 4 who maintained that canonical admonitions are necessary for a pope to be deposed for heresy. Canonical admonitions are proper only to a superior, and are administered by a superior as the initial phase of a penal process. Bellarmine qualifies the sense of the term as he means it to be understood with the words, 'that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious', thereby making it clear that the warnings are not part of a juridical procedure, but only serve the purpose of fraternal correction in order to determine whether or not the pope in question 'ceases by himself to be pope' by his heresy, ipso facto, and not by the ministerial instrumentality of any judgment at the conclusion of an official procedure, whereby the Church authorities would render a judgment on the supreme judge and ruler, and as a consequence of which the heretic Pontiff would only then fall from the Pontificate upon such judgment passed on him by his subjects and inferiors. Ballerini, a follower of Bellarmine’s opinion, understood perfectly that Bellarmine was not speaking of canonical admonitions being necessary in this context when he commented (in the above cited passage), 'In such a crisis for the faith, cannot even inferiors warn their superior by fraternal correction[?]'; and, 'For any person, even a private person, the words of Saint Paul to Titus hold' – and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to administer the warnings would not be an official act of ecclesiastical authority, but 'a duty of charity and not of jurisdiction', for the purpose only of discerning whether or not there is pertinacity, in order to determine whether or not the individual in question is properly a heretic who has fallen from the Pontificate: 'having been once or twice corrected, does not repent, but remains obstinate in a belief contrary to a manifest or defined dogma; by this his public pertinacity which for no reason can be excused, since pertinacity properly pertains to heresy, he declares himself to be a heretic'."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 500-501). Kindle Edition.

    CK, I agree completely with the bolded sentence above about Bellarmine's position. And Bellarmine's position agrees with 1917 Canon Law. 

    A "legally-forced" (ipso jure) "loss of office," does not "require admonitions." Canon 188 says that it requires nothing more than "the fact itself" (ipso facto) of a "defection from the Catholic Faith." Here is Canon 188 in English and Latin:

    Quote
    Canon 188: Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: ... 4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;

    Canon 188: Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: ... 4º A fide catholica publice defecerit;

    Why am I certain that no official "admonition" is required for the ipso jure "loss of office?" Because Canon 188 says that this "loss of office" happens "upon the fact and without any declaration." The "declaration" mentioned there is the same "declaration" mentioned in Canon 2314, where the law states that the "declaration" comes after the heretic does not "respect warnings." Canon 188 is saying that a "declaration" is not needed for the ipso jure and ipso facto "loss of office." I agree with Canon 188. Fr. Kramer seems to agree with that. Bellamine seems to agrees with that.

    The concept of ipso facto LOGICALLY EXCLUDES the need for any additional steps like official "admonitions." Any official "admonitions" would be additional steps to allow the competent authority to legally take the final action of ultimately condemning/anathematizing the heretic. Those additional steps (the official "admonitions") are not needed for the ipso jure "loss of office" which is caused by an ipso facto "defection," according to Canon 188.

    My entire point is that Canon Law, which binds every Catholic, already includes the correct understanding of how the automatic "loss of office" occurs. It is not a mere "theological opinion." It is the law. The Church has spoken.

    Since any heretic incurs automatic (ipso facto) excommunication (Canon 2314 §1.1), he is immediately "separated from the Church" to such a degree that if he held an office before, he automatically loses the office by professing heresy. Canonically, he is given the opportunity to come back into the Church, but if an only if he "respects warnings." If he does not respect two official warnings, then he is "declared" after the first official warning and "condemned" after the second official warning. But he is "separated from the Church" and loses any ecclesiastical office upon ipso facto profession of heresy, before any warnings happen.

    Are we in agreement on this?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #82 on: January 17, 2024, 04:09:38 PM »
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  • ???


    Pope Saint Boniface I, 418-422: “No one has ever boldly raised his hands against the Apostolic Eminence, from whose judgment it is not permissible to dissent; no one has rebelled against this, who did not wish judgment to be passed upon him.”
    Pope Saint Nicholas I (the great), 858-867: “Neither by the emperor, nor by all the clergy, nor by kings, nor by the people will the judge be judged…. The first See will not be judged by anyone….”

    Pope Saint Leo IX, 1053: “By passing a preceding judgment on the great See, concerning which it is not permitted any man to pass judgment, you have received anathema from all the Fathers of all the venerable Councils…. As the hinge while remaining immovable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.’ ”

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302, approved by the Fifth Lateran Council: “Therefore, if the earthly power goes astray, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a lesser spiritual power goes astray, it will be judged by its superior; and truly, if the highest power goes astray, it will not be able to be judged by man, but by God alone. And so the Apostle testifies, ‘The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one.’ [1 Cor 2:15]”

    Pope Gregory XI, 1377, condemned the error: “An ecclesiastic, even the Roman Pontiff, can legitimately be corrected, and even accused, by subjects and lay persons.”

    Canon 1404: The First See is judged by no one.
    [Current Code of Canon Law, 1983]


    Canon 1556: The Primatial See can be judged by no one.
    [Previous Code of Canon Law, 1917]


    If a person lawfully-elected to the Chair (See) of Peter publicly professes heresy, he automatically loses his office, which means "the See" is legally-vacant. A Pope who legally loses his office (Canon 188) becomes a normal cleric from the perspective of the law, and he is subject all the laws that cleric are subject to. He then can be judged by a competent authority.

    So, there is no contradiction in 1917 Canon Law, as I have stated it, and the quotes that you provided.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #83 on: January 17, 2024, 04:17:33 PM »
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  • But you are throwing the word "formal" in there unnecessarily. I am saying the canonical standard is actually lower for the initial "loss" of papal office, power, jurisdiction, and legitimacy, according to Canon Law. The Pope doesn't need to be proven to be a "formal" (i.e., pertinacious) heretic in order to lose those things. The proof of pertinacity comes after the repeated "warnings" by a competent authority. But no warnings are necessary for the initial "loss" of office (Canon 188.4).

    I do not agree with you that pertinacity is not required for Canon 188.4 to take effect.  Public heresy is a type of public defection from the Faith.  Canon 1325 defines who is a heretic and that definition includes pertinacity.  Therefore, pertinacity is required for Canon 188.4 to take effect.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #84 on: January 17, 2024, 04:42:53 PM »
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  • I do not agree with you that pertinacity is not required for Canon 188.4 to take effect.  Public heresy is a type of public defection from the Faith.  Canon 1325 defines who is a heretic and that definition includes pertinacity.  Therefore, pertinacity is required for Canon 188.4 to take effect.

    We agree that no formal, official determination of "pertinacity" is necessary for automatic excommunication for ipso facto heresy, right? That is the type of "pertinacity" I was referring to.

    If some kind of formal, official determination of pertinacity was assumed in all uses of the word "heretic" in the Code, then there would be no need for the two warnings discussed in Canon 2134, which are required to legally establish pertinacity. And if those additional steps were required to establish "heresy," then ipso facto heresy would be a meaningless concept in the Code.

    Finally, Canon 1325 is describing heresy in its perfected form. That Canon was not meant to provide an exhaustive definition of the use of the word in the Code. It does not say "For the purposes of this Code, heresy is defined as ...." 

    Canon 7 is an example of the type of definition you are describing. The wording there is very different from Canon 1325.

    Quote
    Canon 7 (1983 CIC 361)

    Under the name Apostolic See or Holy See in this Code come not just the Roman Pontiff, but
    also, unless by the nature of the thing or from the context of the words something else appears,
    the Congregations, Tribunals, and Offices through which the same Roman Pontiff is wont to
    expedite the affairs of the universal Church.



    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #85 on: January 17, 2024, 05:08:52 PM »
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  • I understand that formal heresy (moral and canonical) requires pertinacity.  I do not agree, however, that it requires admonitions.  St. Robert Bellamarine did not teach this.

    "It is manifestly evident that in the clearly stated context where he speaks of warnings, that Bellarmine is not stating or implying that there is any need for canonical admonitions for a pope to lose office. It was the exponents of Opinion No. 4 who maintained that canonical admonitions are necessary for a pope to be deposed for heresy. Canonical admonitions are proper only to a superior, and are administered by a superior as the initial phase of a penal process. Bellarmine qualifies the sense of the term as he means it to be understood with the words, 'that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious', thereby making it clear that the warnings are not part of a juridical procedure, but only serve the purpose of fraternal correction in order to determine whether or not the pope in question 'ceases by himself to be pope' by his heresy, ipso facto, and not by the ministerial instrumentality of any judgment at the conclusion of an official procedure, whereby the Church authorities would render a judgment on the supreme judge and ruler, and as a consequence of which the heretic Pontiff would only then fall from the Pontificate upon such judgment passed on him by his subjects and inferiors. Ballerini, a follower of Bellarmine’s opinion, understood perfectly that Bellarmine was not speaking of canonical admonitions being necessary in this context when he commented (in the above cited passage), 'In such a crisis for the faith, cannot even inferiors warn their superior by fraternal correction[?]'; and, 'For any person, even a private person, the words of Saint Paul to Titus hold' – and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to and he demonstrates that he understood well that Bellarmine’s reason for the Pontiff’s subjects to administer the warnings would not be an official act of ecclesiastical authority, but 'a duty of charity and not of jurisdiction', for the purpose only of discerning whether or not there is pertinacity, in order to determine whether or not the individual in question is properly a heretic who has fallen from the Pontificate: 'having been once or twice corrected, does not repent, but remains obstinate in a belief contrary to a manifest or defined dogma; by this his public pertinacity which for no reason can be excused, since pertinacity properly pertains to heresy, he declares himself to be a heretic'."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 500-501). Kindle Edition.
    In Synopsis Theologiae Dogmaticae (1897), Tanquerey explains that in the extraordinary case of a heretical Pope or multiple doubtful Popes, begins by noting that during the First Vatican Council, Bishop Gasser took the occasion to discussed the hypothesis of a Pope falling into heresy, which was considered unlikely, but not impossible. He then explains that if such were to happen, “he would either be ipso facto deprived of the Pontificate, or the body of bishops could (indirectly) depose him, as in the case of doubtful pope: for in these extraordinary cases, the authority devolves to the episcopal body.”[42]
     

    In Tractatus De Romano Pontifice (1891), Palmieri explains that it is God, not man, who deprives a heretical Pope of his jurisdiction, but says it doesn’t happen until the Church declares him a heretic. He then references Suarez as the authority for his position: 
    "If a Pope is obstinate in his heresy—obstinate, I say: for, if he heeds the Church’s admonitions, nothing further is necessary—such a Pope is deposed, not by man, but by God himself, who takes away the jurisdiction that He had given him; the Church, for her part, only declares the man to be a heretic, and then (ideoque) God deprives him of his jurisdiction." (cf. Suarez, Defensio Fidei Catholicae, lib. iv c. 7 n. 5).
    In the quotation Palmieri referenced, Suarez says, “although in the case of heresy [the Pope] could be deposed, he is in truth not deposed by man but by God himself, after the declaration of a legitimate Council has preceded.” (Defensio Fidei Catholicae, lib. v c 7 n. 5).
     
    In Sacrae Theologiae Summa (1955), Joachim Salaverri teaches the same as Palamerri, and he too references Suarez: 
    "Theologians concede that a general Council can licitly declare a Pope heretical, if this case [of a Pope falling into heresy] is possible, but it cannot depose him authoritatively since he is superior to the Council … see Suarez, De fide d.10 s.6."[43]
    The fact that Salaverri means a sitting Pope can be licitly declared a heretic, is evident from the following quotation from Suarez that he referenced to support his position:  
    I say thirdly, if a Pope were a heretic and incorrigible, when first, through the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church, a declaratory sentence of the crime is pronounced against him, he ceases to be Pope. This is the common opinion among the doctors. (Suarez, De Fide, disp x, sect. 6.)
    In Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1887), Fr. Smith observes that there are two main opinions concerning how a heretical Pope is deprived of his jurisdiction, and then explains that, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the church, i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.”[44]
    In Summa Apologetica de Ecclesia Catholica (1890), Vincent Groot also teaches that a Pope who falls into heresy is not deprived of his jurisdiction until his heresy is juridically established and declared: 
    "In the case of a Pope who is a public, legal, notorious, and contumacious heretic… he would have to be deposed by a council of bishops.  But the deposition would not be an act of jurisdiction, since there is no power greater than the Pope, but a declaratory sentence, by which the fact of heresy is juridically established; and once established, the Pope is believed to be deprived of his dignity by divine law."[45] 

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-true-meaning-of-bellarmines-ipso.html





    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #86 on: January 17, 2024, 05:23:43 PM »
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    If a person lawfully-elected to the Chair (See) of Peter publicly professes heresy, he automatically loses his office, which means "the See" is legally-vacant.
    So the argument goes.  But nothing is official until the Church acts.  Therefore, without any Church declaration, it would be wrong to say that pope x has lost his office.  We can only say that pope x is heretical.  Only the Church can determine if pope x "publicly" "professed" "heresy", according to the legal definition of all 3 of these words.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #87 on: January 17, 2024, 05:31:30 PM »
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  • So the argument goes.  But nothing is official until the Church acts.  Therefore, without any Church declaration, it would be wrong to say that pope x has lost his office.  We can only say that pope x is heretical.  Only the Church can determine if pope x "publicly" "professed" "heresy", according to the legal definition of all 3 of these words.

    What part of "becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration" do you not understand? I really do want to help you understand this.

    Quote
    Canon 188 (1983 CIC 194) Cross-Refs.: 1917 CIC 156, 1444,2168, 2314, 2379, 2388

    Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation
    recognized by the law itself if a cleric:

    4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #88 on: January 17, 2024, 05:39:12 PM »
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  • Where does St Bellarmine explain this in his "fifth opinion"?

    And are you now saying SV's are not Catholic with the last bolded?
    My mistake, 2V, he explains it in his refutation of the fourth opinion. This gives us the proper understanding of what his fifth opinion means:
    The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority and from reason that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on St. Paul (Titus, c. 3), who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate — which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence [note this does not exclude the necessity of a declaratory sentence].

    Bellarmine also manifests his thinking on how a Pope is deposed in his refutation of the second opinion: "Thus, the second opinion is that the Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if it is only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God, for which reason he can be judged by the Church. That is, he is declared deposed by divine law, and deposed de facto, if he still refused to yield. This is of John of Turrecremata, but it is not proven to me". Why is it not proven to St Robert?:
    "For jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, THEREFORE, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men, nor would such wish to relinquish that power by his own will. Add that the foundation of this opinion is that secret heretics are outside the Church, which is false".

    No, I do not hold that sedevacantists are outside the Church. Most are, as Bishop Williamson said in his latest EC, "serious Catholics". The grave crisis and universal confusion excuse many a Catholic from errors while doing their best to provide for the lack of sound guidance from the Magisterium. However, were I to make such a decision, knowing better, I would certainly be appointing myself pope and placing myself outside the Church. Hence my comment. I hope you can appreciate the difference.



    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #89 on: January 17, 2024, 05:44:49 PM »
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  • What part of "becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration" do you not understand? I really do want to help you understand this.
    Someone who remains in office has not tacitly resigned. If he joins the Mormons, that would be tacit resignation.
    Material heresy by the pope continuing in his office is not what canonists understand by public defection from the faith.