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Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)  (Read 11752 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2024, 07:51:13 AM »
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  • Douay-Rheims Bible.
    Where there is neither Gentile nor Jєω, circuмcision nor uncircuмcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.

    No sedes or non sedes.  We are all Catholics


    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #46 on: January 16, 2024, 10:51:56 AM »
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  • Angelus, do you affirm or deny the following proposition:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Yes, I agree with that proposition. However, according to Canon 2314, the initial "separation," although having grave consequences, is provisional to some degree. There are three steps in the process. The impact of each of those steps is described in more detail in Canons 2257-2267.

    1. ipso facto level of excommunication = the excommunicate is legally "removed" from office. He has no legal authority to posit any official act and his jurisdiction is suspended. The office becomes "vacant" in a legal sense (de jure).

    2. tolerandus level of excommunication = the excommunicate loses, in addition to those things mentioned at step 1, the fruits (benefits) of his office, like salary, housing, etc.

    3. vitandus level of excommunication = the excommunicate loses, in addition to those things mentioned in steps 1 and 2, the office itself (per se) and he is denied ecclesiastical burial and things like that.

    The first step of excommunication is the most important from a practical standpoint. What matters most is the an ipso facto excommunicate cannot legally be considered to be an "acting Pope." He is suspended/impounded. The seat is, for all practical purposes, "vacant" at step 1. And, since the person is no longer legally the Pope, he can be judged and punished (steps 2 and 3), which is what Bellarmine says in his Fifth Opinion:

    Quote
    Now the fifth true opinion, is that a Pope who is a manifest heretic, ceases in himself to be Pope and head, just as he ceases in himself to be a Christian and member of the body of the Church: whereby, he can be judged and punished by the Church.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #47 on: January 16, 2024, 11:25:31 AM »
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  • Yes, I agree with that proposition. However, according to Canon 2314, the initial "separation," although having grave consequences, is provisional to some degree. There are three steps in the process. The impact of each of those steps is described in more detail in Canons 2257-2267.

    1. ipso facto level of excommunication = the excommunicate is legally "removed" from office. He has no legal authority to posit any official act and his jurisdiction is suspended. The office becomes "vacant" in a legal sense (de jure).

    2. tolerandus level of excommunication = the excommunicate loses, in addition to those things mentioned at step 1, the fruits (benefits) of his office, like salary, housing, etc.

    3. vitandus level of excommunication = the excommunicate loses, in addition to those things mentioned in steps 1 and 2, the office itself (per se) and he is denied ecclesiastical burial and things like that.

    The first step of excommunication is the most important from a practical standpoint. What matters most is the an ipso facto excommunicate cannot legally be considered to be an "acting Pope." He is suspended/impounded. The seat is, for all practical purposes, "vacant" at step 1. And, since the person is no longer legally the Pope, he can be judged and punished (steps 2 and 3), which is what Bellarmine says in his Fifth Opinion:


    Does the proposition I presented when applied to a pope that becomes a public manifest formal heretic (hypothetically speaking that a pope could actually become a heretic) cause the man to go from an ontological pope to ontological non-pope?

    Note:  By "ontological pope", I mean a man upon whom Jesus Christ has conferred the papal munus.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #48 on: January 16, 2024, 11:42:04 AM »
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  • Does the proposition I presented when applied to a pope that becomes a public manifest formal heretic (hypothetically speaking that a pope could actually become a heretic) cause the man to go from an ontological pope to ontological non-pope?

    Note:  By "ontological pope", I mean a man upon whom Jesus Christ has conferred the papal munus.

    While we both believe that a true Pope gets his true authority from Jesus Christ, we, as mere mortals, are not privy to the lawfully-elected Pope's relationship with Jesus at any give moment. So, I don't know the answer to your specific question. 

    What we have, from Church authority in its Canon Law, are rules and definitions to guide us in determining heresy and loss of authority from a legal perspective. And Canon Law says that the ipso facto heretic, while in that state, is practically equivalent to a non-Pope. But the Church is cautious to prove pertinacity before his final condemnation, again, because we are mere mortals.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #49 on: January 16, 2024, 12:36:51 PM »
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  • While we both believe that a true Pope gets his true authority from Jesus Christ, we, as mere mortals, are not privy to the lawfully-elected Pope's relationship with Jesus at any give moment. So, I don't know the answer to your specific question.

    What we have, from Church authority in its Canon Law, are rules and definitions to guide us in determining heresy and loss of authority from a legal perspective. And Canon Law says that the ipso facto heretic, while in that state, is practically equivalent to a non-Pope. But the Church is cautious to prove pertinacity before his final condemnation, again, because we are mere mortals.

    And now we come to the difference between us two.  I hold that by Divine Law an ontological pope will become an ontological non-pope by his public sin of manifest formal heresy.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #50 on: January 16, 2024, 01:30:54 PM »
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  • And now we come to the difference between us two.  I hold that by Divine Law an ontological pope will become an ontological non-pope by his public sin of manifest formal heresy.

    You can "hold" anything you want, I suppose. God gave you free will. But I would suggest that you follow Canon Law. It is the safer course.

    The "divine law" in this matter is Titus 3:10-11:

    Quote
    10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: 11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.


    For the theology see St. Thomas Aquinas's commentary on Titus:

    Quote
    On the part of selection, one is a heretic, because he selects; but if he is not obstinate and is ready to be corrected by the Church, then his selection arose not from malice but from ignorance. In that case he is not a heretic.

    One should avoid this man on account of the danger: their talk will eat its way like gangrene (2 Tim 2:17). Furthermore, let no one take part in the sins, lest he appear to consent to them: if any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting (2 John 1:10). And also because of the punishment: depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be swept away with all their sins (Num 16:26).

    Such a person should be warned, and if he does not desist, he should be avoided. And he says, after the first and second admonition, for that is the way the Church proceeds in excommunicating. The reason for this is that the number three suggests that everything has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Consequently, it is taken as expressing all things: this is the third time I am coming to you (2 Cor 13:1), and also because of the perfection of the number three.

    For Law of the Church see Canon 2314 (and Canons 2257-2267):

    Quote
    Canon 2314 (1983 CIC 1364)

    § 1. All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic:

    1.° Incur by that fact excommunication;
    2.° Unless they respect warnings, they are deprived of benefice, dignity, pension, office,
    or other duty that they have in the Church, they are declared infamous, and [if]
    clerics, with the warning being repeated, [they are] are deposed;
    3.° If they give their names to non-Catholic sects or publicly adhere [to them], they are
    by that fact infamous, and with due regard for the prescription of Canon 188, n. 4,
    clerics, the previous warnings having been useless, are degraded.

    All of the above agree on the process.



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #51 on: January 16, 2024, 01:44:04 PM »
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  • You can "hold" anything you want, I suppose. God gave you free will. But I would suggest that you follow Canon Law. It is the safer course.

    The "divine law" in this matter is Titus 3:10-11:


    For the theology see St. Thomas Aquinas's commentary on Titus:

    For Law of the Church see Canon 2314 (and Canons 2257-2267):

    All of the above agree on the process.

    Then you don't actually agree with the following proposition:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #52 on: January 16, 2024, 01:49:52 PM »
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  • You can "hold" anything you want, I suppose. God gave you free will. But I would suggest that you follow Canon Law. It is the safer course.

    The "divine law" in this matter is Titus 3:10-11:


    For the theology see St. Thomas Aquinas's commentary on Titus:

    For Law of the Church see Canon 2314 (and Canons 2257-2267):

    All of the above agree on the process.

    No.  I don't even know where to unravel this.

    You need to step away from the Canon Law and look at the "5 Opinions" if you want to continue looking at the issue.  I myself don't spend much time on it, since we're not going to resolve that dispute here.  For me, only one thing matters, namely, that the Pope is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit and cannot therefore damage the Church beyond recognition.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #53 on: January 16, 2024, 02:05:19 PM »
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  • Then you don't actually agree with the following proposition:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Just curious why you are so hesitant to use the terminology and procedures outlined in Canon Law. If you think Bellarmine teaches something different from the law of the Church, you are incorrect.

    Here's Bellarmine himself:


    Quote
    The fourth opinion is of Cajetan [322]. There, he teaches, that a manifestly heretical Pope is not ipso facto deposed; but can and ought to be deposed by the Church. Now in my judgment, such an opinion cannot be defended. For in the first place, that a manifest heretic would be ipso facto deposed, is proven from authority and reason. The Authority is of St. Paul, who commands Titus [323], that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious, an heretic is to be shunned: and he understands this before excommunication and sentence of a judge


    And here:


    Quote
    Now the fifth true opinion, is that a Pope who is a manifest heretic, ceases in himself to be Pope and head, just as he ceases in himself to be a Christian and member of the body of the Church: whereby, he can be judged and punished by the Church.


    Do you think Bellarmine is contradicting himself?

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #54 on: January 16, 2024, 02:15:06 PM »
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  • Do you think Bellarmine is contradicting himself?
    .

    No, because a pope cannot be judged by the Church. So, St. Robert Bellarmine says a pope would cease to be pope, and then can and must be judged by the Church. The two events are not simultaneous, and he must cease being pope before he can be judged.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #55 on: January 16, 2024, 02:38:16 PM »
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  • .

    No, because a pope cannot be judged by the Church. So, St. Robert Bellarmine says a pope would cease to be pope, and then can and must be judged by the Church. The two events are not simultaneous, and he must cease being pope before he can be judged.
    Yes, it's a first-then scenario.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #56 on: January 16, 2024, 03:14:09 PM »
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  • .

    No, because a pope cannot be judged by the Church. So, St. Robert Bellarmine says a pope would cease to be pope, and then can and must be judged by the Church. The two events are not simultaneous, and he must cease being pope before he can be judged.

    Correct. That is exactly what I have been saying. Canon Law says this too. The ipso facto heretic "loses" his office and the office becomes legally "vacant" (Canon 188.4), without any need for a declaration by any authority.

    At the same moment, the ipso facto heretic is automatically excommunicated, and he incurs all the penalties that an automatic excommunication requires (found interspersed among Canons 2257-2267).

    His legal (de jure) "loss" of office means that he is not an "acting Pope." He is in a state of suspension/impoundment. The powers that he would normally have then devolve to the next person/persons in the chain of command, which is/are the Prefects of the Apostolic See (Canon 7). This overcomes the legal restriction that "The First See is judged by no one" (Canon 1556). The First See is legally "vacant" at that point (Canon 188.4). So the person who has "lost" his claim to the "First See," can be judged.

    It is the Apostolic See (with Pope provisionally "lost" his now "vacant" office) that should then act as the competent authority to move to the "declaration" and "condemnation" steps of the excommunication process.

    https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #57 on: January 16, 2024, 04:12:21 PM »
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  • Just curious why you are so hesitant to use the terminology and procedures outlined in Canon Law. If you think Bellarmine teaches something different from the law of the Church, you are incorrect.

    Here's Bellarmine himself:

    And here:

    Do you think Bellarmine is contradicting himself?

    That the public sin of manifest heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church does not depend upon St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching or Canon Law.  It is a doctrine of the Catholic Church.  You seem to be making this doctrine intrinsically connected with Canon Law.  It is not so and cannot be so because the former is of Divine Law and the latter is of Ecclesiastical Law.  The former is non-contingent and the latter is contingent.  Even if there were no canonical delict with the effect of excommunication for public manifest formal heresy, the public manifest formal heretic would still be separated from the Church.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #58 on: January 16, 2024, 04:57:52 PM »
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  • That the public sin of manifest heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church does not depend upon St. Robert Bellarmine's teaching or Canon Law.  It is a doctrine of the Catholic Church.  You seem to be making this doctrine intrinsically connected with Canon Law.  It is not so and cannot be so because the former is of Divine Law and the latter is of Ecclesiastical Law.  The former is non-contingent and the latter is contingent.  Even if there were no canonical delict with the effect of excommunication for public manifest formal heresy, the public manifest formal heretic would still be separated from the Church.

    CK, I already explained and provided the quote from Titus that the Church bases its "doctrine" on. Your statement suggests that we don't already agree on that. We do agree on that, I think.

    To restate more clearly, St. Paul's Epistle to Titus 3:10-11 is the Scriptural basis of the Church doctrine on how to deal with heretics. Aquinas's and Bellarmine's theological principles are based on the Church's interpretation of Titus. The Church's Canon Law summarizes the Church doctrine plus the opinions of the Doctors plus provides additional precision in heretical cases.

    Canon Law is based on Church doctrine, where the doctrine is applicable. Regarding the matter of heresy, the Church doctrine is applicable. Canon Law contains precepts of divine law, natural law, and ecclesiastical law. Canon Law is not only, as you seem to suggest, a collection of ecclesiastical laws. I can give examples, but what I have said seems so elementary, I won't waste the time. Read this instead:

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm

    And your last sentence is directed at a phantom as well. I completely agree with that statement. But Canon Law doesn't even require that the apparent heretic be a "formal" (i.e., pertinacious) heretic in order to be "separated from the Church" and "lose" his office, as you suggest. Canon 188.4 only requires that the heresy be "public" for the loss of office to occur:

    Quote
    Canon 188 (1983 CIC 194) Cross-Refs.: 1917 CIC 156, 1444, 2168, 2314, 2379, 2388

    Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation
    recognized by the law itself if a cleric:

    4.° Publicly defects from the Catholic faith;

    The "pertinacity" is investigated and determined later in excommunication steps 2 and 3. But just by "publicly" professing "heresy" (defined in Canon 1325), the person is ipso facto excommunicated (Canon 2314.1). That means he is "separated from the Church," and he will remain "separated" unless he "respects warnings."

    You seem to think my position is substantially different from yours. I don't think so. I am just trying to use the precise language used in Canon Law. But we end up practically in the same place: a public heretic is separated (excommunicated level 1) immediately, without need for any declaration by a competent authority. Because of that "ipso facto excommunication," he "loses" his office and, therefore, the office is legally "vacant" (Canon 188.4).


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #59 on: January 16, 2024, 08:11:03 PM »
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  • Fr. Chazal affirms the above proposition and has acknowledged that Jorge Bergoglio is not ontologically pope because he is a public manifest formal heretic.  Here is the syllogism:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church.
    The sedevacantists not only want to claim Archbishop Lefebvre, now they want to claim Fr Chazal also.

    It is incredible, it is utterly bizarre, that a priest can write a book condemning sedevacantism and be held up as a sedevacantist.

    FR CHAZAL CONTRA CEKADAM: CONCLUSIONS:

    From the above, we can conclude that sedevacantism proceeds from error and generates error:

    1. A False Modern Notion of Authority
    Authority is for truth... God tolerated defective instruments... One of the unforseen consequences of the dogma of Papal Infallibility... that idea (of absolute authority) is still trapping many people in the Novus Ordo, and is trapping sedevacantists... What is most worrying is the individual twist of sedevacantism: the idea that an INDIVIDUAL's perception of a fact, grave though it may be, leads to the loss of office of a perlate or a magistrate. There is a foul smell of modern democracy here.

    2. An Opinion, Both False and Dangerous, Raised to the Level of Dogma
    ...We are not saying that St Robert Bellarmine's fifth opinion is both false and dangerous, but your interpretation of it. You make it mandatory, necessary, binding in conscience, which is something Bellarmine never did...

    3. Instant Damnation of the Catholic World...

    4. Confusion Between Infallibility and Impeccability in the Faith
    The Monophysisists are to Christ what sedevacantists are to the Papacy...

    5. Anarchical Refusal of the Juridical Order of the Church
    Mgr Guerard des Laurier should have adhered to the theological distinction held by his Dominican predecessors; PER SE/QUOAD NOS. Things that have happened before God may not have yet happened before men, while something happens immediately when a Pope proffers a heresy. Should a phenomenon happen per se, suapte natura, ex natura, ipso facto, by itself, from the very fact, yet we remain human, social beings, carrying on in a visible society endowed with a public life and a juridical bond. That is the way we are: social beings, Quoad Nos. We stand against the opposite notion which is anarchy... We are Catholics, not Protestants... we wait patiently... until it can be resolved by an instrument established by Our Lord to prevent the fragmentation of the Church...

    6. Invisible Apostolic Visibility
    Again, unlike you (Fr Cekada) Mgr des Lauriers excludes the total loss of office. My only caveat, worth repeating, is that a purely material succession equates to nothing either in reality or in theological terms, just like a material sin is not a sin (Forma dat esse; materia potius non ens quam ens). In previous pages Bouix explains very well that Faith is not a condition for the power of jurisdiction to hold, and would believe even less in the fiction of the return of this power if Francis were to convert. But what Mgr Guerard understood is that the apostolic succession established by Christ cannot perish the way you say it did...

    Like you (Fr Cekada) we retain the notion of what heresy causes "ex natura sua", "per se", and like Guerard, we recognise that not everything has disappeared, mysteriously, but that something sufficient remains of the visible apostolic unity of the Church, not just "materialiter", that's insufficient, but "quoad nos" a quantum remains for the Church to continue its mission.. In the meantime we urge all Catholics unite around, or at least save their skin by, the one principle ingrained in Divine Law: separation from heretics. That principle is both sufficient and necessary...

    7. A Portico to Many Other Errors
    Sedevacantism is at the origin of many bad fruits, and the presence of unhinged private judgement, what we warn most about sedevacantism, is clearly showing. In this unfortunate process, it also picks up previous errors, if not heresies...
    On the issue of schism, I was only able to find eight presently ignominiously reigning popes...
    And there are other bizarre branches led by strange bishops: offshoots of Bishop Sanborn...
    Tell me if I'm being too harsh, but sedevacantism is a bit like Islam: once you join or submit to it, the perpetual internal fight only begins...
    Our duty is to keep the faith, not to enter into new errors...

    8. Francis Gets Away
    He is not real, he is just a charlatan, guilty of charlatanism. He just stole the show in Rome. Give him a few spanks, take away his clown nose and that's it. In this case, there is no current man responsible for the damnation of millions of souls. On the day of judgment Francis can simply say he was not in charge, just a clown or at worst, a fraud. Burning in hell as Pope is a very different way to burn... our leaders just evaporate... because of the magic of the sin of heresy...
    To say he is no pope, to say he is not there despite the obvious fact to the contrary...
    Per se, it is much better to be a sedevacantist and separate from heretics than not to be one, and connive with them, even though, quoad aliquos sedevacantistas, there is a risk of schism...