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Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)  (Read 11835 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2024, 09:39:21 AM »
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  • No, all theologians and Canonists agree that Pope are not subject to Canon Law and cannot be coerced by those parts of it that are not Divine (or natural) law, but merely say that the Pope should obey the laws they establish.  Even the law about laws taking force in 3 months can easily be overridden by a single word from the Pope, if he were to issue a decree and simply say, "This law binds immediately."  This binding in 3 months is simply a law that the Pope has already laid down and it effects the faithful and those are impacted by the law, but he is in no way bound to this or prevented from simply issuing a law that binds immediately (thus overriding Canon Law).  Pope can dispense from (merely human) law at any time and for any reason, and he cannot be coerced by it.  Nor can a Pope be excommunicated other than by the action of Divine Law.  All theologians and Canon lawyers agree on this.

    Yes, if a certain law is "dispensable," then the Pope can dispense with it by "a single word." But the allowance for "dispensation" is itself part of the law. Some laws are not "dispensable" simply because a dispensation would be against "right reason" or agains "the common good." Aquinas explains these things in the Summa: an unjust law is no law at all.

    According to St. Thomas any law, to be considered, just must have these 4 qualities:

    1. made by a lawful authority

    2. promulgated to the community

    3. be a dictate of right reason

    4. consistent with the common good of that community

    Any dictate not having those four qualities is not a "law" in the Catholic sense. Even a Pope cannot abide by those things because they are guaranteed by natural law.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #31 on: January 15, 2024, 11:30:16 AM »
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  • 1. I am not denying that it is of divine law that a heretic will lose his office. However, the Church has implemented rules, out of caution, to determine with certainty that the person is truly a heretic before the final "deposition" from office occurs (level 3 excommunication). Before that final "deposition" occurs, a lawfully-elected Pope would be "removed," de jure, from his office. The office itself would become "vacant," de jure, and all of the powers that a Pope would normally have would be "suspended." That Pope would be "impounded." There would be a "privation" of his lawful exercise of his powers, from the moment of his apparent heresy.

    2. So even the apparent heretic (ipso facto heretic) automatically loses (by suspension) all power of governance immediately, according to the Canons. From a practical standpoint, for the faithful Catholic, we must ignore him until he clarifies that he is not a heretic or he repents.

    3. Legally, while a lawfully-elected Pope is suspended/impounded, the governance of the Church devolves to certain offices in the Apostolic See. Those officials in those offices govern the Church in a limited capacity ("they keep the lights on"), until the papal situation is resolved. It may not be "resolved" until the death of a lawfully-elected Pope simply because that lawfully-elected Pope may refuse to give up power, and he may have enough support in the Vatican to prevent any changes in his lifetime. But that does not give him any true legitimate authority. At that point he is an unlawful usurper.

    4. If the apparent heretic (ipso facto heretic) was an honest person, he would want to clear his name. He would answer Dubia and fix any problems. Bergoglio is a communist infiltrator. He will never do that.

    5. The above is what Canon Law requires if there is a lawfully-elected Pope. Bergoglio was not lawfully-elected, as I have demonstrated at www.antipope.com. So Bergoglio can simply be grabbed by the ears and thrown in jail. He has absolutely no right to hold the office of Pope. He is a law-breaker and excommunicated by agreeing to take over as Pope before the previous Pope had died.

    If the Church needs to determine with certainty that the person is truly a heretic, then we are dealing with one who is only suspect of heresy and not one who is manifestly heretical.  In the case of one who is manifestly heretical, he would lose his office completely and immediately upon his manifest heresy.  The Church would only then need to declare that he is a manifest heretic to enforce his already lost office.


    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #32 on: January 15, 2024, 04:35:41 PM »
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  • "Bellarmine is clear and explicit on this general point: that the separation from the body of the Church, as well as loss of office and all jurisdiction, are accomplished by the very act of heresy, ex natura hæresis, and not by the judgment of the Church, or as a penalty for an ecclesiastical delict. This sententia is de fide regarding firstly the separation from the Church, in virtue of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers, 2) the teaching of the universal magisterium set forth in the Roman Catechism, and, 3) the teaching of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis; and secondly, it is de fide regarding the loss of office and jurisdiction, because of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers on this point which Bellarmine amply demonstrates in his refutation of Opinion No. 4, and 2) the canonical doctrine of the Church proposed by the papal ordinary magisterium in Canon 188. 4°; which, therefore, qualifies it as a doctrine pertaining to the universal and ordinary magisterium. Thus, it is not a mere question of law, but of definitive magisterial doctrine that heretics and schismatics are separated from the Church by their own actions suapte natura, apart from any ecclesiastical law or judgment; and that the consequent loss of office and jurisdiction is not the result of any penal sanction or any judgment pronounced by the Church, but is the direct effect of the act of defection from the Church, sine alia vi externa; which therefore, not by any human law, takes place ex natura hæresis or ex natura schismatis."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 480). Kindle Edition.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #33 on: January 15, 2024, 05:20:54 PM »
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  • Uhm, nobody says that Canon Law is contrary to Divine Law, but some aspects of Canon Law are not Divine Law but discipline that's been imposed by the Church.

    Aspects of Canon Law that are not of Divine Law do not bind the Pope, nor can a Pope be deposed from office by operation of human law.

    It's something "you are not understanding".
    Thank you Ladislaus. That is Catholic common sense well expressed. And exactlly how Divine Law applies to a heretic Pope being convicted and losing jurisdiction and office is a contentious issue that the Church has never adjudicated on.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #34 on: January 15, 2024, 05:23:09 PM »
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  • Yes, if a certain law is "dispensable," then the Pope can dispense with it by "a single word." But the allowance for "dispensation" is itself part of the law. Some laws are not "dispensable" simply because a dispensation would be against "right reason" or agains "the common good." Aquinas explains these things in the Summa: an unjust law is no law at all.

    False.  Pope is not bound by Canon Law, cannot be coerced by it, and certainly cannot be deposed by the operation of law ... but only by Divine Law.  He can also dispense with any law unless it's contrary to Divine Law or natural law (an extension of Divine Law), even if it is against "right reason" or against "the common good".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #35 on: January 15, 2024, 05:23:58 PM »
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  • Thank you Ladislaus. That is Catholic common sense well expressed. And exactlly how Divine Law applies to a heretic Pope being convicted and losing jurisdiction and office is a contentious issue that the Church has never adjudicated on.

    Right, that's why we have the "5 Opinions" regarding what would happen to a heretical pope, and indeed the Church has never formally endorsed any one of them.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #36 on: January 15, 2024, 05:51:08 PM »
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  • "Bellarmine is clear and explicit on this general point: that the separation from the body of the Church, as well as loss of office and all jurisdiction, are accomplished by the very act of heresy, ex natura hæresis, and not by the judgment of the Church, or as a penalty for an ecclesiastical delict. This sententia is de fide regarding firstly the separation from the Church, in virtue of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers, 2) the teaching of the universal magisterium set forth in the Roman Catechism, and, 3) the teaching of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis; and secondly, it is de fide regarding the loss of office and jurisdiction, because of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers on this point which Bellarmine amply demonstrates in his refutation of Opinion No. 4, and 2) the canonical doctrine of the Church proposed by the papal ordinary magisterium in Canon 188. 4°; which, therefore, qualifies it as a doctrine pertaining to the universal and ordinary magisterium. Thus, it is not a mere question of law, but of definitive magisterial doctrine that heretics and schismatics are separated from the Church by their own actions suapte natura, apart from any ecclesiastical law or judgment; and that the consequent loss of office and jurisdiction is not the result of any penal sanction or any judgment pronounced by the Church, but is the direct effect of the act of defection from the Church, sine alia vi externa; which therefore, not by any human law, takes place ex natura hæresis or ex natura schismatis."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 480). Kindle Edition.
    One must ask oneself, CK, why Pope Urban VIII or some Pope after him did not excommunicate John of St Thomas for heresy, if this is de fide as Fr Kramer says. Obviously, Fr Kramer has an erroneous understanding of this issue. It sounds Catholic but it is not.

    Once again, this matter has never been settled by the Church. It is a hotly contested topic among theologians. Let us not appoint ourselves Pope to settle the issue.

    Here is John of St Thomas:

    Response to the objections
    It is easy to answer the objections of Bellarmine and Suárez against this view.
    Objection 1. “A heretic is not a member, so cannot be head of the Church”

    Bellarmine objected that the Apostle [St Paul] says that we must avoid the heretic after two admonitions, that is to say, after he clearly appears pertinacious, before any excommunication and sentence of a judge, as St. Jerome says in his commentary, for heretics separate themselves by the heresy itself (per se) from the Body of Christ.
    And here is his reasoning:
    • A non-Christian cannot be Pope, for he who is not a member [of the Church] cannot be the head; now, a heretic is not a Christian, as commonly say the Fathers; thus, a manifest heretic cannot be Pope.
    • One cannot object that a character remains in him , because if he remained Pope because of a character, since it is indelible, it could never be deposed.  This is why the Fathers commonly teach that a heretic, because of heresy and regardless of excommunication, is deprived of any jurisdiction and power, as say St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose and St. Jerome.
    Answer:  
    I answer [to Bellarmine] that the heretic should be avoided after two admonitions legally made and with the Church’s authority, and not according to private judgment; indeed, a great confusion in the Church would follow , if it was allowed that the admonition is made by a private man, and that the manifestation of this heresy having been made without being declared by the Church and proclaimed to all, in order that they avoid the Pontiff, that all should be required to avoid; for a heresy of the Pope cannot be public for all the faithful on the report of a few, and this report, not being legal, does not require that all believe it and avoid the Pontiff; and therefore as the Church proclaims him legally elected by legally designating him for all, it is necessary that she deposes him by declaring and proclaiming him as a heretic to be avoided.
    Therefore, we see that this has been practiced by the Church, when in the case of the deposition of the Pope, the cause itself was first addressed by the General Council before the Pope was declared “No Pope”, as we said above.  Therefore it is not because the Pope is a heretic, even publicly, that he will ipso facto cease to be Pope, before the declaration of the Church, and before she proclaims him as “to be avoided” by the faithful.
    And when St. Jerome says that a heretic separates itself from the body of Christ, he does not exclude a judgment of the Church, especially in such a serious matter as the deposition of the Pope, but it indicates only the quality of the crime, which excludes per se from the Church, without any further sentence, at least from the moment he is declared [heretic] by the Church;  indeed, even if the crime of heresy separates itself (ex se) of the Church, however, in relation to us that separation is not understood as have been made (not intelligitur facto) without this statement.
    It is the same thing from the reason added by Bellarmine.  A non-Christian who is such in itself AND in relation to us (quoad se et quoad nos) cannot be Pope;  however, if he is not in itself a Christian, because he has lost the faith, but if in relation to us he is not legally declared being infidel or heretic, as obvious as it may appear in a private judgment, he is still in relation to us (quoad nos) a member of the Church and therefore the head.   Accordingly, a judgment of the Church is required through which he is declared (proponatur) as being a non-Christian and to be avoided, and then he ceases in relation to us to be the Pope, consequently, previously he did not cease to be himself (etiam in se) [Pope], because all what he did was valid in itself.1



    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #37 on: January 15, 2024, 05:53:23 PM »
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  • If the Church needs to determine with certainty that the person is truly a heretic, then we are dealing with one who is only suspect of heresy and not one who is manifestly heretical.  In the case of one who is manifestly heretical, he would lose his office completely and immediately upon his manifest heresy.  The Church would only then need to declare that he is a manifest heretic to enforce his already lost office.
    CK,

    A manifest heretic is dealt with in Canon 2314. That person can be proven, in the external forum, to have professed a heretical proposition. The stages of excommunication discussed in 2314 do not have to do with confirming a "suspicion." No, the reason for the next two steps described is to ascertain the pertinacity of the manifest heretic.

    One suspected of heresy is dealt with in Canon 2315, using a different process.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #38 on: January 15, 2024, 06:08:31 PM »
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  • "Bellarmine is clear and explicit on this general point: that the separation from the body of the Church, as well as loss of office and all jurisdiction, are accomplished by the very act of heresy, ex natura hæresis, and not by the judgment of the Church, or as a penalty for an ecclesiastical delict. This sententia is de fide regarding firstly the separation from the Church, in virtue of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers, 2) the teaching of the universal magisterium set forth in the Roman Catechism, and, 3) the teaching of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis; and secondly, it is de fide regarding the loss of office and jurisdiction, because of 1) the unanimity of the Fathers on this point which Bellarmine amply demonstrates in his refutation of Opinion No. 4, and 2) the canonical doctrine of the Church proposed by the papal ordinary magisterium in Canon 188. 4°; which, therefore, qualifies it as a doctrine pertaining to the universal and ordinary magisterium. Thus, it is not a mere question of law, but of definitive magisterial doctrine that heretics and schismatics are separated from the Church by their own actions suapte natura, apart from any ecclesiastical law or judgment; and that the consequent loss of office and jurisdiction is not the result of any penal sanction or any judgment pronounced by the Church, but is the direct effect of the act of defection from the Church, sine alia vi externa; which therefore, not by any human law, takes place ex natura hæresis or ex natura schismatis."

    Kramer, Paul. To deceive the elect: The catholic doctrine on the question of a heretical Pope (p. 480). Kindle Edition.

    The Canons that I quoted don't really say anything significantly different from Fr. Kramer. But until the "declaration" and the "condemnation" happens, the heretical Pope, is not "deposed" from his "office" per se. Again, that final "deposition" is an academic point.

    Practically, for the faithful, there is very little difference if the heretic Pope has been officially "deposed" or not. As an ipso facto excommunicate (because of his manifest heresy), the Pope is provisionally "removed" from office (which then becomes provisionally "vacant" upon his "removal"), pending his final "deposition" after his pertinacity is determined by excommunication steps 2 and 3.

    This war between the sedevacantists and the sedeprivationists is easily resolved by understanding the distinctions made in Canon 2314. These two groups are saying something practically identical, with the caveat that a Pope is a special case because he can potentially avoid the excommunication steps 2 and 3, if he has the political support in the Vatican. In other words, in the case of the heretic Pope, we cannot guarantee that his full excommunication (level 3) will take place. But ipso facto excommunication (level 1) gets us 90+% there anyway.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #39 on: January 15, 2024, 06:45:33 PM »
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  • …Fr. Chazal's "sede-impoundism" closely follows 1917 Canon Law. He believes that Bergoglio was lawfully elected…
    Team Bergoglio's pre-conclave lobbying was disqualifying, so his "election" cannot be canonical.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #40 on: January 15, 2024, 06:48:14 PM »
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  • False.  Pope is not bound by Canon Law, cannot be coerced by it, and certainly cannot be deposed by the operation of law ... but only by Divine Law.  He can also dispense with any law unless it's contrary to Divine Law or natural law (an extension of Divine Law), even if it is against "right reason" or against "the common good".
    The Natural Law can never be contrary to "right reason" or "the common good." And a Pope can never act "lawfully" in a way that is contrary to Natural Law. Canon Law assumes Natural Law principles without repeating them in the Code.

    Whether law is something of reason?
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q90.A1

    Whether the law is always something directed to the common good?
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q90.A2


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #41 on: January 15, 2024, 07:06:08 PM »
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  • Team Bergoglio's pre-conclave lobbying was disqualifying, so his "election" cannot be canonical.

    I agree with that. There are the Daneels and McCarrick comments to that effect. It's just another reason that the election was null and void. But, in my opinion, the simplest, most objectively-provable reason is that the previous Pope was not dead when the 2013 Conclave occurred.

    If the previous Pope was not dead, then the Apostolic See was not "lawfully vacant," since the Apostolic See is a multi-office, multi-member entity (Canon 7):


    Quote
    Canon 7 (1983 CIC 361)
    Under the name Apostolic See or Holy See in this Code come not just the Roman Pontiff, but
    also, unless by the nature of the thing or from the context of the words something else appears,
    the Congregations, Tribunals, and Offices through which the same Roman Pontiff is wont to
    expedite the affairs of the universal Church.

    And as Universi Dominici Gregis, 14 explains, the other Curial prefects that make up the rest of the officials in the Apostolic See do not lose their office until AFTER "the death of the Pope." That is why a papal resignation (Canon 221) does not trigger a new papal election:

    Quote
    Canon 221 (1983 CIC 332)
    If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns, for the validity of this resignation, acceptance by a
    Cardinal or another is not necessary.


    Upon the resignation of the Roman Pontiff, the See of Rome (the diocese of Rome) becomes lawfully vacant. But the Apostolic See is only partially vacant, and only becomes lawfully vacant upon "the death of the Pope."

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #42 on: January 16, 2024, 06:53:50 AM »
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  • The Canons that I quoted don't really say anything significantly different from Fr. Kramer. But until the "declaration" and the "condemnation" happens, the heretical Pope, is not "deposed" from his "office" per se. Again, that final "deposition" is an academic point.

    Practically, for the faithful, there is very little difference if the heretic Pope has been officially "deposed" or not. As an ipso facto excommunicate (because of his manifest heresy), the Pope is provisionally "removed" from office (which then becomes provisionally "vacant" upon his "removal"), pending his final "deposition" after his pertinacity is determined by excommunication steps 2 and 3.

    This war between the sedevacantists and the sedeprivationists is easily resolved by understanding the distinctions made in Canon 2314. These two groups are saying something practically identical, with the caveat that a Pope is a special case because he can potentially avoid the excommunication steps 2 and 3, if he has the political support in the Vatican. In other words, in the case of the heretic Pope, we cannot guarantee that his full excommunication (level 3) will take place. But ipso facto excommunication (level 1) gets us 90+% there anyway.

    Angelus, do you affirm or deny the following proposition:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #43 on: January 16, 2024, 07:03:13 AM »
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  • One must ask oneself, CK, why Pope Urban VIII or some Pope after him did not excommunicate John of St Thomas for heresy, if this is de fide as Fr Kramer says. Obviously, Fr Kramer has an erroneous understanding of this issue. It sounds Catholic but it is not.

    Once again, this matter has never been settled by the Church. It is a hotly contested topic among theologians. Let us not appoint ourselves Pope to settle the issue.

    Here is John of St Thomas:

    Response to the objections
    It is easy to answer the objections of Bellarmine and Suárez against this view.
    Objection 1. “A heretic is not a member, so cannot be head of the Church”

    Bellarmine objected that the Apostle [St Paul] says that we must avoid the heretic after two admonitions, that is to say, after he clearly appears pertinacious, before any excommunication and sentence of a judge, as St. Jerome says in his commentary, for heretics separate themselves by the heresy itself (per se) from the Body of Christ.
    And here is his reasoning:
    • A non-Christian cannot be Pope, for he who is not a member [of the Church] cannot be the head; now, a heretic is not a Christian, as commonly say the Fathers; thus, a manifest heretic cannot be Pope.
    • One cannot object that a character remains in him , because if he remained Pope because of a character, since it is indelible, it could never be deposed.  This is why the Fathers commonly teach that a heretic, because of heresy and regardless of excommunication, is deprived of any jurisdiction and power, as say St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose and St. Jerome.
    Answer
    I answer [to Bellarmine] that the heretic should be avoided after two admonitions legally made and with the Church’s authority, and not according to private judgment; indeed, a great confusion in the Church would follow , if it was allowed that the admonition is made by a private man, and that the manifestation of this heresy having been made without being declared by the Church and proclaimed to all, in order that they avoid the Pontiff, that all should be required to avoid; for a heresy of the Pope cannot be public for all the faithful on the report of a few, and this report, not being legal, does not require that all believe it and avoid the Pontiff; and therefore as the Church proclaims him legally elected by legally designating him for all, it is necessary that she deposes him by declaring and proclaiming him as a heretic to be avoided.
    Therefore, we see that this has been practiced by the Church, when in the case of the deposition of the Pope, the cause itself was first addressed by the General Council before the Pope was declared “No Pope”, as we said above.  Therefore it is not because the Pope is a heretic, even publicly, that he will ipso facto cease to be Pope, before the declaration of the Church, and before she proclaims him as “to be avoided” by the faithful.
    And when St. Jerome says that a heretic separates itself from the body of Christ, he does not exclude a judgment of the Church, especially in such a serious matter as the deposition of the Pope, but it indicates only the quality of the crime, which excludes per se from the Church, without any further sentence, at least from the moment he is declared [heretic] by the Church;  indeed, even if the crime of heresy separates itself (ex se) of the Church, however, in relation to us that separation is not understood as have been made (not intelligitur facto) without this statement.
    It is the same thing from the reason added by Bellarmine.  A non-Christian who is such in itself AND in relation to us (quoad se et quoad nos) cannot be Pope;  however, if he is not in itself a Christian, because he has lost the faith, but if in relation to us he is not legally declared being infidel or heretic, as obvious as it may appear in a private judgment, he is still in relation to us (quoad nos) a member of the Church and therefore the head.  Accordingly, a judgment of the Church is required through which he is declared (proponatur) as being a non-Christian and to be avoided, and then he ceases in relation to us to be the Pope, consequently, previously he did not cease to be himself (etiam in se) [Pope], because all what he did was valid in itself.1

    Plenus Venter, Fr. Kramer holds that it (see proposition below) is de fide divina et catholica by way of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.  The teaching has been bolstered by acts of the Magisterium AFTER Vatican I, as Fr. Kramer points us in his book.  So Fr. Kramer understands why some theologians held it to be at the level of opinion prior to Vatican I.

    Plenus Venter, do you affirm or deny the following proposition:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

    If you affirm it, then what is your issue?  If you deny it, why?

    Fr. Chazal affirms the above proposition and has acknowledged that Jorge Bergoglio is not ontologically pope because he is a public manifest formal heretic.  Here is the syllogism:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ELEISON COMMENTS -VIGANO SEDEVACANTIST – II? (861)
    « Reply #44 on: January 16, 2024, 07:30:04 AM »
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  • If nothing else, since Father Chazal agrees that Bergoglio meets the definition of a public manifest heretic, one would at the very least be entitled to go with the Bellarmine position and hold that he's not the pope.  Father Chazal made a big point of saying there are 5 Opinions, and that he's entitled to go with Cajetan/John of St. Thomas.  According to the same thinking, one would be equally entitled to go with St. Robert Bellarmine's position (and arguably moreso, due to the authority of Bellarmine vs. these others and, as Father Kramer points out, post-Vatican I teaching).