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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)  (Read 10679 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2023, 07:08:46 PM »
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  • Fr. Thomas Slater, S.J., in his A Manual of Moral Theology, Page 285:

    “It is no sin to think that another is wicked or has committed a sin if we know it to be a fact.”
    It is no sin to recognize that Pope Francis teaches against our Faith.  We have a right to distance ourselves from him because it is a fact that his actions are those of an objective wolf.

    To think that he has committed a subjective sin is beyond our ability, until he admits it himself or until the college of bishops confront him.  That the matter of the sin is present, yes.  That the intention to commit the sin is present, no.

    You can check what formal heresy is without cracking a single theological manual.  Look up 'formal' in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English language if you don't trust my explanation.  If you want to propose that the word denotes otherwise in theological parlance, try to find a manual that will back you up.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #106 on: August 23, 2023, 06:45:48 AM »
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  • It is no sin to recognize that Pope Francis teaches against our Faith.  We have a right to distance ourselves from him because it is a fact that his actions are those of an objective wolf.

    To think that he has committed a subjective sin is beyond our ability, until he admits it himself or until the college of bishops confront him.  That the matter of the sin is present, yes.  That the intention to commit the sin is present, no.

    You can check what formal heresy is without cracking a single theological manual.  Look up 'formal' in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English language if you don't trust my explanation.  If you want to propose that the word denotes otherwise in theological parlance, try to find a manual that will back you up.

    "Formal" means, in the case of heresy, pertinacity, that is, being aware that a teaching is against the Catholic Faith and still adhering to it anyways.  One does not need absolute certitude that one has committed a subjective sin.  One only needs moral certitude based on the evidence of external actions.  It is the same degree of certitude that a canonical judge would need to declare one a heretic.  The simple layman can in conscience make that judgement based on the evidence and thereby reject the heretic's authority.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #107 on: August 23, 2023, 08:23:33 AM »
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  • "Archbishop Lefebvre had an idea of the danger when he resigned in 1982 as Superior General of what was still then the Society, and put its Superiorate in the hands of younger successors. For at the same time he reserved to himself all questions of relations with Rome. With his long years of direct experience of dealing as Apostolic Delegate to French Africa with Vatican officials, he suspected that the young priests of his Society might prove to be like babes in the wood amidst the wolves and sharks at work in the Vatican, and so it turned out, because the Big Bad Wolf had such lovely teeth, as Little Red Riding Hood told him! “All the better with which to devour you, my darling,” came the answer. And since modernist minds have lost objective truth, all the more power to deceive do the “sincere” lies of Roman officials have. Subjectively, they are “sincere,” especially lovely teeth! Objectively, they are deadly."  - Bp. Williamson

    But if the hierarchy of New Rome is "objectively deadly," with their sincere, sharp, "lovely teeth," then why is not the New Mass an objective mortal sin, since it is the crowned fruit, the objective of their deadly earnestness?
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
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    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #108 on: August 24, 2023, 07:26:59 PM »
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  • "Formal" means, in the case of heresy, pertinacity, that is, being aware that a teaching is against the Catholic Faith and still adhering to it anyways.  One does not need absolute certitude that one has committed a subjective sin.  One only needs moral certitude based on the evidence of external actions.  It is the same degree of certitude that a canonical judge would need to declare one a heretic.  The simple layman can in conscience make that judgement based on the evidence and thereby reject the heretic's authority.
    You are inventing your own definition of 'formal', and understandably giving no source to confirm the definition.  One must not only be aware that one is contradicting the Faith, one must formalize it, that is, one must say so.  It is plain English.

    The simple layman is allowed in conscience to see that the intentions of Pope Francis are questionable, given the things he says.  It does not take much research to find out that the modernist clergy had perverse education, and that it is possible their personal culpability may be diminished.  God knows.

    The judgement we make is purely objective: we know he teaches heresy, therefore we stay away.  As far as we know, they have not lost the authority to teach the truth.  They're just not doing so.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #109 on: August 24, 2023, 07:35:08 PM »
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  • "Archbishop Lefebvre had an idea of the danger when he resigned in 1982 as Superior General of what was still then the Society, and put its Superiorate in the hands of younger successors. For at the same time he reserved to himself all questions of relations with Rome. With his long years of direct experience of dealing as Apostolic Delegate to French Africa with Vatican officials, he suspected that the young priests of his Society might prove to be like babes in the wood amidst the wolves and sharks at work in the Vatican, and so it turned out, because the Big Bad Wolf had such lovely teeth, as Little Red Riding Hood told him! “All the better with which to devour you, my darling,” came the answer. And since modernist minds have lost objective truth, all the more power to deceive do the “sincere” lies of Roman officials have. Subjectively, they are “sincere,” especially lovely teeth! Objectively, they are deadly."  - Bp. Williamson

    But if the hierarchy of New Rome is "objectively deadly," with their sincere, sharp, "lovely teeth," then why is not the New Mass an objective mortal sin, since it is the crowned fruit, the objective of their deadly earnestness?
    To celebrate the Novus Ordo is certainly sinful matter.  Simply from the viewpoint of law, it is disobedience to the current regulations, namely Quo Primum.  If celebrated with full knowledge of it's illegitimacy, and full consent, well...


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #110 on: August 25, 2023, 06:55:16 AM »
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  • You are inventing your own definition of 'formal', and understandably giving no source to confirm the definition.  One must not only be aware that one is contradicting the Faith, one must formalize it, that is, one must say so.  It is plain English.

    The simple layman is allowed in conscience to see that the intentions of Pope Francis are questionable, given the things he says.  It does not take much research to find out that the modernist clergy had perverse education, and that it is possible their personal culpability may be diminished.  God knows.

    The judgement we make is purely objective: we know he teaches heresy, therefore we stay away.  As far as we know, they have not lost the authority to teach the truth.  They're just not doing so.

    "The moral object may be consider in one of two ways:  materially, when its own relationship to the eternal law is considered; formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent.  An object that is materially evil constitutes material sin; an object that is formally evil constitutes a formal sin."
    (Handbook of Moral Theology, Dominic M. Prummer, O.P., 1956, Section 46)

    Once again, if one must "say so" in order for him to be condemned as a heretic, then only those that "say so" can be convicted in a canonical trial.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #111 on: August 25, 2023, 07:13:38 PM »
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  • "The moral object may be consider in one of two ways:  materially, when its own relationship to the eternal law is considered; formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent.  An object that is materially evil constitutes material sin; an object that is formally evil constitutes a formal sin."
    (Handbook of Moral Theology, Dominic M. Prummer, O.P., 1956, Section 46)

    Once again, if one must "say so" in order for him to be condemned as a heretic, then only those that "say so" can be convicted in a canonical trial.
    "...formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent."

    Precisely.

    Where is this recognition?  Where does Pope Francis recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith?  Over and over he will say that his heresies conform with the Faith.  I'm just as sick and tired of it as you are, but the recognition is not there.  Is he sincerely and gravely mistaken, due to his perverted education?  Does he know full well, and pretends not to know?  God knows.  I don't know.  You don't know.  We know it's fishy, we have the right to make an objective judgement and stay away, but until we get his recognition of his own heresy, we cannot say he is a formal heretic.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #112 on: August 25, 2023, 07:28:18 PM »
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  • "...formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent."

    Precisely.

    Where is this recognition?  Where does Pope Francis recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith?  Over and over he will say that his heresies conform with the Faith.  I'm just as sick and tired of it as you are, but the recognition is not there.  Is he sincerely and gravely mistaken, due to his perverted education?  Does he know full well, and pretends not to know?  God knows.  I don't know.  You don't know.  We know it's fishy, we have the right to make an objective judgement and stay away, but until we get his recognition of his own heresy, we cannot say he is a formal heretic.

    A man who’s supposedly the head of the Catholic Church, born in 1936 and doesn’t know what heresy is??? :facepalm:

    The degenerate communist knows more about heresy than you will ever know. Maybe this tidbit will help you understand:

    Spanish Original shows Francis admitted his Teaching is “perhaps a Heresy, I don’t know”


    https://novusordowatch.org/2015/05/spanish-original-heresy/


    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #113 on: August 25, 2023, 08:04:26 PM »
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  • "...formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent."

    Precisely.

    Where is this recognition?  Where does Pope Francis recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith?  Over and over he will say that his heresies conform with the Faith.  I'm just as sick and tired of it as you are, but the recognition is not there.  Is he sincerely and gravely mistaken, due to his perverted education?  Does he know full well, and pretends not to know?  God knows.  I don't know.  You don't know.  We know it's fishy, we have the right to make an objective judgement and stay away, but until we get his recognition of his own heresy, we cannot say he is a formal heretic.

    Bergoglio doesn't get to claim "material heresy" because he doesn't "recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith." The contradiction is an objective fact, determined by logically analyzing propositions. 

    Bergoglio has officially taught, and published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, that, in certain situations, for pastoral reasons, a divorced and remarried Catholic without an annulment can receive Holy Communion.

    That is formal, obstinate heresy, as the Dubia (and the lack of a response) has proved. Bergoglio is not "ignorant" of the perennial teaching of the Church regarding D&R Catholics.

    Here is the explanation of formal and material heresy in Callan and McHugh's Moral Theology:

    Quote
    829. Heresy is not formal unless one pertinaciously rejects the truth, knowing his error and consenting to it.

    (a) One must know that one’s belief is opposed to divine revelation or to Catholic faith. Hence, those who were born and brought up in Protestantism, and who in good faith accept the confession of their denomination, are not formal but material heretics. Even those who are ignorant of their errors through grave fault and who hold to them firmly, are guilty, not of formal heresy, but of sinful ignorance (see 904 sqq.)
    (b) One must willingly consent to the error. But for formal heresy it is not required that a person give his assent out of malice, or that he continue in obstinate rejection for a long time, or that he refuse to heed admonitions given him. Pertinacity here means true consent to recognized error, and this can proceed from weakness (e.g., from anger or other passion); it can be given in an instant, and does not presuppose an admonition disregarded. Hence, if one sees the truth of the Catholic Church, but fears that assent will involve many obligations and out of weakness turns away from the truth, one then and there pertinaciously consents to error.
    830. Examples of material heresy are: (a) Catholics who deny certain dogmas of faith, because they have not been well instructed, but who are ready to correct their errors, whenever the Church’s teaching is brought home to them; (b) non-Catholics who do not accept the Catholic Church, but who have never had any misgivings about the tenets of their own denomination, or who in doubts have searched for the truth to the best of their ability.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #114 on: August 25, 2023, 08:22:39 PM »
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  • Bergoglio doesn't get to claim "material heresy" because he doesn't "recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith." The contradiction is an objective fact, determined by logically analyzing propositions.

    Bergoglio has officially taught, and published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, that, in certain situations, for pastoral reasons, a divorced and remarried Catholic without an annulment can receive Holy Communion.

    That is formal, obstinate heresy, as the Dubia (and the lack of a response) has proved. Bergoglio is not "ignorant" of the perennial teaching of the Church regarding D&R Catholics.

    Here is the explanation of formal and material heresy in Callan and McHugh's Moral Theology:
    The contradiction is an objective fact, as you say.  Therefore, he is objectively a heretic.

    That 'Communion for 'remarried'' garbage is a fine example of objective heresy.  Lack of response is not recognizing anything.  Yes it's fishy to say the least.  But it could also be that his trusted councilors gave him some perverted reasoning why the authors of the Dubia are incorrect, and it's not worth responding to that flavor of idiocy, for example, or whatever.  Remember, Pope Francis has thousands of bishops cheering him on, and a handful who reproach him.  It's probably obvious to his mind that he can't be that far off, since the mass of bishops love him.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #115 on: August 25, 2023, 08:30:11 PM »
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  • A man who’s supposedly the head of the Catholic Church, born in 1936 and doesn’t know what heresy is??? :facepalm:

    The degenerate communist knows more about heresy than you will ever know. Maybe this tidbit will help you understand:

    Spanish Original shows Francis admitted his Teaching is “perhaps a Heresy, I don’t know”


    https://novusordowatch.org/2015/05/spanish-original-heresy/
    The pope doesn't know up from down?  Yes, that is exactly how bad things have gotten.  The very Vicar of Christ has a brain made of mush.  You're going to have to go back farther than 1936 to return to the days before seminaries were safe from Modernist filth.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #116 on: August 25, 2023, 08:59:14 PM »
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  • The contradiction is an objective fact, as you say.  Therefore, he is objectively a heretic.

    That 'Communion for 'remarried'' garbage is a fine example of objective heresy.  Lack of response is not recognizing anything.  Yes it's fishy to say the least.  But it could also be that his trusted councilors gave him some perverted reasoning why the authors of the Dubia are incorrect, and it's not worth responding to that flavor of idiocy, for example, or whatever.  Remember, Pope Francis has thousands of bishops cheering him on, and a handful who reproach him.  It's probably obvious to his mind that he can't be that far off, since the mass of bishops love him.

    The lack of response to the Dubia cannot be used as evidence of "material heresy." He is aware of the Church's teaching in the matter.

    Truth #1: A D&R Catholic is in an objective state of mortal sin.
    Truth #2: A Catholic in a state of objective mortal sin CANNOT worthily receive Holy Communion (de fide).
    Truth #3: Bergoglio said that a D&R Catholic CAN worthily receive Holy Communion, in certain cases.

    Proposition #2 and #3 contradict one another. Therefore, Bergoglio has officially taught a direct, objective heresy against the faith. It is not possible to claim that Bergoglio does not know the teaching of the Catholic church in this matter. This makes him a formal heretic.

    Bergoglio was warned by four Cardinals of his error and he did not respond to the warning with any explanation. This makes him an obstinate and formal heretic.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #117 on: August 25, 2023, 09:44:39 PM »
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  • Proposition #2 and #3 contradict one another. Therefore, Bergoglio has officially taught a direct, objective heresy against the faith. It is not possible to claim that Bergoglio does not know the teaching of the Catholic church in this matter. This makes him a formal heretic.

    Bergoglio was warned by four Cardinals of his error and he did not respond to the warning with any explanation. This makes him an obstinate and formal heretic.
    Direct objective heresy, no doubt.

    It is quite possible to claim the pope does not know this is heresy.  Thank God on your knees for whatever grasp of reality you have.  The pope and many other high clergymen believe in the evolution of dogma, that certain Church teachings were only "substantial anchorages" good for some historical circuмstances and not applicable to today's circuмstances, and other felonious ideas that induce vomiting in our healthier minds.

    St. Robert Bellarmine talks about the entire college of bishops being able to confront a pope, forcing him to either recant or become a formal heretic.  Well, he might not have meant absolutely %100 of them, but surely more than four.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #118 on: August 26, 2023, 08:33:31 AM »
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  • "...formally, in so far as its morality is recognized by the conscience of the agent."

    Precisely.

    Where is this recognition?  Where does Pope Francis recognize that his teaching contradicts the Faith?  Over and over he will say that his heresies conform with the Faith.  I'm just as sick and tired of it as you are, but the recognition is not there.  Is he sincerely and gravely mistaken, due to his perverted education?  Does he know full well, and pretends not to know?  God knows.  I don't know.  You don't know.  We know it's fishy, we have the right to make an objective judgement and stay away, but until we get his recognition of his own heresy, we cannot say he is a formal heretic.

    But didn't you imply that the "recognition" has to be explicitly expressed by the heretic, that is, that he explicitly admit that he knows he is teaching heresy?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #119 on: August 26, 2023, 02:53:06 PM »
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  • Direct objective heresy, no doubt.

    It is quite possible to claim the pope does not know this is heresy.  Thank God on your knees for whatever grasp of reality you have.  The pope and many other high clergymen believe in the evolution of dogma, that certain Church teachings were only "substantial anchorages" good for some historical circuмstances and not applicable to today's circuмstances, and other felonious ideas that induce vomiting in our healthier minds.

    St. Robert Bellarmine talks about the entire college of bishops being able to confront a pope, forcing him to either recant or become a formal heretic.  Well, he might not have meant absolutely %100 of them, but surely more than four.

    So, you think that an authentic Pope can officially teach (authentic Magisterium) something contrary to a de fide dogma? And that he is just an uninformed, "material" heretic because he might believe "in the evolution of dogma?"

    Do you understand what you are suggesting? If that papal claimant contradicts the de fide dogma because he believes "in the evolution of dogma," then that papal claimant is a guilty of an even worse heresy than the first: he is a Modernist. 

    Being a Modernist does not excuse the papal claimant from being a "formal heretic." It confirms him as a heretic.