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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)  (Read 10678 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2023, 06:28:37 AM »
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  • PS:

    It is interesting to me that in the debate between St. Bellarmine and Cajetan, neither seems to have addressed the matter of universal acceptance.  

    It seems that the classical theologians who followed them were able to absorb their work, and with the passage of time, make some additional insights, which in turn developed the subject matter a bit more:

    JST, just one generation behind St. Bellarmine and Cajetan, then St. Alphonsus, Billot, all the way up to (the lesser) Journet on the eve of V2 included the matter of universal consent of the cardinals into their opinions/conclusions.

    That maturing or development of doctrine (if such it is) never occurred to me before, but now I’m wondering if there’s something to it?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #91 on: August 22, 2023, 06:31:53 AM »
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  • On what point exactly does Saint Alphonsus agree with JST?

    Sorry, the quote was in the other thread.

    They agree on the universal acceptance argument:

    St. Alphonsus:

    "It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #92 on: August 22, 2023, 06:48:15 AM »
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  • PS:

    It is interesting to me that in the debate between St. Bellarmine and Cajetan, neither seems to have addressed the matter of universal acceptance. 

    It seems that the classical theologians who followed them were able to absorb their work, and with the passage of time, make some additional insights, which in turn developed the subject matter a bit more:

    JST, just one generation behind St. Bellarmine and Cajetan, then St. Alphonsus, Billot, all the way up to (the lesser) Journet on the eve of V2 included the matter of universal consent of the cardinals into their opinions/conclusions.

    That maturing or development of doctrine (if such it is) never occurred to me before, but now I’m wondering if there’s something to it?

    All that said, the question addressed was a bit different:

    Cajetan/Bellarmine addressed the question of what would happen if a pope became a heretic, whereas Billot/Alphonsus discussed the validity of papal elections (ie., the latter discuss whether he became a pope; the former, whether he remained a pope).

    It seems only John of St. Thomas addressed both issues (sorry Yeti😆).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #93 on: August 22, 2023, 08:18:07 AM »
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  • It is true that there is one way for a heretic to be declared a formal heretic without admitting it himself.  This happens when a proper authority confronts him (in a trial for example) and says, "I am telling you that what you are saying is heresy, and if you do not retract, you will become a formal heretic".  The problem today is that the pope himself is a material heretic, and no man on Earth has the proper authority over him to confront him authoritatively.  I think St. Robert Bellarmine in addressing this possibility teaches that in such a case, the college of bishops could act as that authority.  Well, let them do so, and Francis will lose his office if he does not retract.

    St. Robert's statement, quoted by Fr. Kramer, needs to be understood in the light of the distinction between objective and subjective.  It is the same distinction that helps us reconcile in our minds two quotes of Our Lord about judging others.

    "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  By their fruits you shall know them".  (Matthew 7:15-6).  Our Lord teaches us to judge our pastors.

    "Judge not, that you may not be judged,"  (Matthew 7:1).  Our Lord teaches us not to judge.

    The distinction is that we must judge our pastors objectively, and must not judge our pastors subjectively.

    Objective--relating to the facts
    Subjective--relating to the person

    Objective judgement of Pope Francis:  This man smiles a lot and has nice and sweet words, but his teaching does not match the dogmas of the Faith.  Francis is a wolf.  Let's stay clear.

    Subjective judgement of Pope Francis:  This man, in his heart, hates Jesus Christ, and intends to lead souls to Hell.

    The objective judgement is commanded by Our Lord, the subjective judgement is forbidden.  We cannot rule out the possibility that Francis really intends to work against Jesus Christ, but only God knows.  All we know is that Francis is objectively a wolf, and we must stay away.

    This is what St. Robert means when he says to condemn someone as a heretic "pure and simple".  The facts show that he is a material heretic, the fruits show us he is an objective wolf, but whether or not it is his personal intention, in the courtroom of our minds, the jury is still out.

    "In conscience one has the right to make such a judgment (of manifest formal heresy) because it is a legitimate matter of conscience, and can be known with certitude. All the canons, and teachings against privately judging superiors and prelates do not refer to judgments of conscience, such as the judgment concerning the manifest heresy of one’s superior, when it can be known with certitude; but rather, they prohibit judgments that require jurisdiction; and explain that private individuals do not possess the requisite jurisdiction for rendering an official judgment, and therefore they may not presume to judge their superiors juridically, and depose them with force of law. However, the right of conscience to judge privately as a matter of conscience in such cases as that of manifest heresy pertains to divine law, since such judgments of conscience are sometimes necessary for salvation; and such a right is acknowledged in Canon Law: ‘Can. 748 § 1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.’ Indeed, the Salza/ Siscoe objection that the making such a judgment is forbidded to the private individual who must wait for the public judgment of the Church, and that asserting this right it is an exercise of the Protestant principle of Private Judgment, is not only false, but it effectively nullifies the Rule of Faith which safeguards the conscience of the individual."

    Kramer, Paul. To Deceive the Elect: The Catholic Doctrine on the Question of a Heretical Pope (Kindle Locations 736-747). Kindle Edition.

    Fr. Thomas Slater, S.J., in his A Manual of Moral Theology, Page 285:

    “It is no sin to think that another is wicked or has committed a sin if we know it to be a fact.”

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #94 on: August 22, 2023, 11:46:06 AM »
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  • :laugh1::facepalm:

    Man alive! You R&R people are absolutely obsessed with John of St. Thomas! And these quotes are from this page alone!! Would you even have heard of him if didn't teach that a pope who becomes a private heretic remains in office until he is deposed?

    For you people, he is some sort of super-hero. He's like King Solomon, Christopher Columbus, Aristotle, St. Pius X, Thomas Edison, Google, Isaac Newton, Joseph Smith, Charlemagne, Mohammed, Batman, Alexander the Great, Jack Bauer and Donald Trump all wrapped into one!

    Got a question? Consult John of St. Thomas! Why ask anyone else? Seriously, some of you people are like this:

    "How about checking what St. Alphonsus has to say on the question?"
    "Nah, why bother? John of St. Thomas knew more than he did."
    "Or St. Robert Bellarmine?"
    "That idiot? He was refuted by John of St. Thomas!"
    "Or look in the Summa?"
    "I just threw my Summa in the trash! It was wasting space on my shelf that I needed for the works of John of St. Thomas..."
    "Or the Council of Trent?"
    "I'm sure all they did at Trent was copy/paste John of St. Thomas. What else would they use?"

    "Is it possible John of St. Thomas is wrong here?"

    ...........:trollface:

    I agree with you Yeti. The sycophants of Bergoglio use their misinterpretation of JST as their last resort to support his antipapacy. The only docuмents needed to verify that Bergoglio is an Antipope are in Canon Law and Universi Dominici Gregis

    The main people pushing JST are the same "former Masons" who argue now that it is a sin to attend the SSPX. It's all Masonic diversionary tactics. They want to keep the "trads" arguing with each other so that Bergoglio can complete his work. Deceivers deceive.

    The real problem is Antipope Bergoglio. We need to quit arguing about dead people. The events discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 are happening now. Those who "consent to iniquity" by acknowledging Bergoglio as "the Holy Father" will suffer spiritually because they will not "receive the love of the Truth." They will consent to the lie that he is the Vicar of Christ.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #95 on: August 22, 2023, 12:31:16 PM »
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  • The real problem is Antipope Bergoglio. We need to quit arguing about dead people. The events discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 are happening now. Those who "consent to iniquity" by acknowledging Bergoglio as "the Holy Father" will suffer spiritually because they will not "receive the love of the Truth." They will consent to the lie that he is the Vicar of Christ.

    Shame on you for so harshly accusing those who do not share your love of Benevacantism. Who do you think you are, anyway?

    You will, of course, be allowed to harshly accuse those who do not share your views. That's just how it is here (the trad circular firing squad). That doesn't mean that it's right.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #96 on: August 22, 2023, 12:39:12 PM »
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  • Shame on you for so harshly accusing those who do not share your love of Benevacantism. Who do you think you are, anyway?

    St. Paul said it Meg. I'm just passing it along. 

    Who do I think I am? I'm a Roman Catholic. I don't submit to lies or liars. Bergoglio is a liar. He is the antithesis of Christ. He is not and never will be "the Pope," "the Holy Father."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #97 on: August 22, 2023, 12:43:02 PM »
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  • St. Paul said it Meg. I'm just passing it along.

    Who do I think I am? I'm a Roman Catholic. I don't submit to lies or liars. Bergoglio is a liar. He is the antithesis of Christ. He is not and never will be "the Pope," "the Holy Father."

    And you are here to convert us all to your version of "Truth," correct? Because previously, we have been in the dark, and have consented to iniquity (in your opinion).

    You are here to show us the light, right?

    Where does you light come from? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #98 on: August 22, 2023, 12:49:10 PM »
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  • And you are here to convert us all to your version of "Truth," correct? Because previously, were have been in the dark, and have consented to iniquity (in your opinion).

    You are here to show us the light, right?

    Happy Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Meg! 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #99 on: August 22, 2023, 12:51:48 PM »
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  • Happy Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Meg!

    But I have consented to iniquity, in your opinion, since I believe that Francis is the Pope. You have so judged, and therefore I am judged by God, correct?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #100 on: August 22, 2023, 01:11:03 PM »
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  • But I have consented to iniquity, in your opinion, since I believe that Francis is the Pope. You have so judged, and therefore I am judged by God, correct?

    I do believe that IF a person believes in their heart that Bergoglio is a "bad man" and doesn't care if he is a "bad man," and IF that same person, agrees that the "bad man" should be called "Papa" or "the Pope" or "the Holy Father," then that person has "consented to iniquity."

    Now, you will notice that the word IF has been bolded above, that means I don't have access to the internal forum of any other human being. So I cannot "judge" in the above matter. Only the person himself can accuse himself and judge himself.

    IF a person is really bothered by what I have said, that MIGHT be an indication that his conscience has been awakened. But since I have no access to that person's internal forum, I can't say for sure.

    IF the person's conscience has been awakened. It MIGHT be best for that person to examine their conscience humbly, repent of any sins they are aware of and seek absolution using the Sacrament of Penance.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #101 on: August 22, 2023, 02:19:44 PM »
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  • I do believe that IF a person believes in their heart that Bergoglio is a "bad man" and doesn't care if he is a "bad man," and IF that same person, agrees that the "bad man" should be called "Papa" or "the Pope" or "the Holy Father," then that person has "consented to iniquity."

    Now, you will notice that the word IF has been bolded above, that means I don't have access to the internal forum of any other human being. So I cannot "judge" in the above matter. Only the person himself can accuse himself and judge himself.

    IF a person is really bothered by what I have said, that MIGHT be an indication that his conscience has been awakened. But since I have no access to that person's internal forum, I can't say for sure.

    IF the person's conscience has been awakened. It MIGHT be best for that person to examine their conscience humbly, repent of any sins they are aware of and seek absolution using the Sacrament of Penance.

    You said in a previous post that those who believe that Francis is the Pope are consenting to iniquity, and that they (we) cannot receive the love of Truth and will suffer spiritually. You talk like a cult leader. 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #102 on: August 22, 2023, 02:35:48 PM »
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  • You said in a previous post that those who believe that Francis is the Pope are consenting to iniquity, and that they (we) cannot receive the love of Truth and will suffer spiritually. You talk like a cult leader.

    Then ignore me and pray for me, as I do for you.



    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #103 on: August 22, 2023, 03:09:54 PM »
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  • Then ignore me and pray for me, as I do for you.

    Can't do the former, but can do the latter. I'm not a fan of the cult leader mentality. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #104 on: August 22, 2023, 03:22:09 PM »
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  • Can't do the former, but can do the latter. I'm not a fan of the cult leader mentality.

    Thanks for the prayers, Meg! May Our Lady shower blessings down on you for that.