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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)  (Read 11040 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2023, 06:11:47 PM »
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  • He is NOT EVEN VALIDLY ELECTED. He is a pure antipope based on objective evidence law and fact.

    Only God can save us. Not the SSPX. Not the Resistance. Not Sedevacantism.
    Illegitimate elections do not make a papacy invalid.  Examples abound in Church history.

    The only thing that will save the Church is the Consecration of Russia by the pope and all the bishops.  Nevertheless, the proper understanding of the situation in the Church is a prerequisite to any progress towards that solution.

    Imagine a patient who suspects his arm is fractured.  The modernist doctor pulls out a microscope.  The sedevacantist doctor pulls out a telescope.  The normal doctor uses the x-ray machine.  No one pretends the x-ray machine will heal the arm, but the proper diagnosis acquired by the use of that instrument will help much more than the instruments employed by the modernist or the sedevacantist.  The three systems of assessing the nature of the crisis are not equal.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #16 on: August 13, 2023, 07:55:29 PM »
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  • Dear young priests, get hold of any texts of the Archbishop himself, and devour them, but beware of editions so doctored by the Newsociety as to cut out anything running contrary to its Newness . . .


    Is there a list of doctored editions/dates of the Archbishop's books? Such docuмentation could provide in person proof to priests, ect, who need some waking up.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #17 on: August 13, 2023, 08:20:01 PM »
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  • Illegitimate elections do not make a papacy invalid.  Examples abound in Church history.

    The only thing that will save the Church is the Consecration of Russia by the pope and all the bishops.  Nevertheless, the proper understanding of the situation in the Church is a prerequisite to any progress towards that solution.

    Imagine a patient who suspects his arm is fractured.  The modernist doctor pulls out a microscope.  The sedevacantist doctor pulls out a telescope.  The normal doctor uses the x-ray machine.  No one pretends the x-ray machine will heal the arm, but the proper diagnosis acquired by the use of that instrument will help much more than the instruments employed by the modernist or the sedevacantist.  The three systems of assessing the nature of the crisis are not equal.

    No, you are terribly wrong. Canon Law and the special law of papal elections must be followed perfectly. Otherwise, the attempted papal election will be null and void. This principle has been promulgated by Church constitutions for over 100 years. If you read the docuмents referenced in the footnotes of Universi Dominici Gregis, you will see this.

    The "examples" that you focus on were from a time when there were no detailed laws regarding papal elections. It was precisely those abuses of the past that motivated the Popes in recent times to lay out the precise requirements for papal elections to prevent those abuses from happening again. 

    Yes, the Consecration of Russia will be done. Exactly how it will be done is a mystery. God will provide. But one thing is clear. It will not be done by Bergoglio because he is not "the Pope." He is the Antichrist.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #18 on: August 13, 2023, 10:07:44 PM »
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  • "...one point must be considered absolutely incontrovertible and placed firmly above any doubt whatever: the adhesion of the universal Church will be always, in itself, an infallible sign of the legitimacy of a determined Pontiff, and therefore also of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy itself.

    ...the aforementioned adhesion of the Church heals in the root all fault in the election and proves infallibly the existence of all the required conditions."

    -Cardinal Billot

    "It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff."

    -Saint Alphonsus de Ligouri

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #19 on: August 14, 2023, 10:24:26 AM »
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  • "...one point must be considered absolutely incontrovertible and placed firmly above any doubt whatever: the adhesion of the universal Church will be always, in itself, an infallible sign of the legitimacy of a determined Pontiff, and therefore also of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy itself.

    ...the aforementioned adhesion of the Church heals in the root all fault in the election and proves infallibly the existence of all the required conditions."

    -Cardinal Billot

    "It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff."

    -Saint Alphonsus de Ligouri

    Cardinal Billot and St. Alphonsus were expressing theological opinions. Those opinions were later negated by subsequent papal Apostolic Constitutions. An authentic Papal decree overrides a mere theological opinion.

    Here is the key description of the concept by Pope Pius XII in his version of the papal election law, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis:

    3. The laws passed by the Roman Pontiffs, through the group of Cardinals of the Roman Church, cannot be vacated, corrected, or changed in any way, nor can anything be taken away from them or added to them, or dispensed in any way concerning them or any part of them. This is especially true of the Pontifical Constitutions, which were passed to regulate the business of the election of the Roman Pontiff [4]. On the contrary, if anything contrary to this provision happens to be done or attempted, we declare it null and void by our supreme authority.

    Here is the key part from Universi Dominici Gregis, which was the law in force in 2013:

    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    Bottom line: the law was not followed in the 2013 conclave. The most obvious (elephant-in-the-room) problem is that Universi Dominici Gregis requires that the previous Pope to have died BEFORE a new election could be held. That law could have been changed if that was the intent of the legislator, Pope Benedict XVI. He did not change that requirement in the law, so we must assume it was not his intent to do so.

    By the way, Benedict XVI did make other minor modifications to Universi Dominici Gregis days after his announced "resignation." So, it's not like he wasn't aware of the docuмent.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #20 on: August 14, 2023, 12:56:22 PM »
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  • ...The most obvious (elephant-in-the-room) problem is that Universi Dominici Gregis requires that the previous Pope to have died BEFORE a new election could be held. That law could have been changed if that was the intent of the legislator, Pope Benedict XVI. He did not change that requirement in the law, so we must assume it was not his intent to do so.

    By the way, Benedict XVI did make other minor modifications to Universi Dominici Gregis days after his announced "resignation." So, it's not like he wasn't aware of the docuмent.

    I'm sure that it is useless to point this out, but using [ctrl]+f, search term "resig", returns these results in the linked docuмent, Universi Dominici Gregis.

    Quote
    3. I further establish that the College of Cardinals may make no dispositions whatsoever concerning the rights of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Church, much less allow any of these rights to lapse, either directly or indirectly, even though it be to resolve disputes or to prosecute actions perpetrated against these same rights after the death or valid resignation of the Pope.12 All the Cardinals are obliged to defend these rights.

    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #21 on: August 14, 2023, 02:37:56 PM »
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  • I'm sure that it is useless to point this out, but using [ctrl]+f, search term "resig", returns these results in the linked docuмent, Universi Dominici Gregis.

    Emile, you seem to think that I claim that a Pope can't resign. That is not my position. Of course a Pope can resign as Canon 332.2 allows.

    However, even if the Pope does resign, the Apostolic See is not completely vacant, until that Pope dies. A new election is only triggered after the complete vacancy of the Apostolic See, which can occur only upon the death of the Pontiff. The idea of having a "pope emeritus" and another acting Pope at the same time is not allowed by current Church law.

    Upon the resignation of a Pope, the Apostolic See is still occupied by the members of the Roman Curia until the death of the Pope. See UDG section 14 which says:

    14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus,13 at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office. An exception is made for the Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church and the Major Penitentiary, who continue to exercise their ordinary functions, submitting to the College of Cardinals matters that would have had to be referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Let's now look at Pastor Bonus Article 6:

    Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    So, going back to your quote from UDG 77, you should be able to better understand the meaning of the phrase "even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff." The correct interpretation can be paraphrased thus:

    "even if the Pope resigns according to Canon 332.2 (which he can do), the type of partial "vacancy" created by that papal resignation does not mean that the requirements of UDG (concerning waiting for the death of the Pope to hold an election) can be ignored. In fact, if those requirements are ignored, the election is null and void."

    You have to understand that a papal "resignation" does not allow creating of a two-living-Pope situation. There can ever be only one living Pope, according to this current law of papal elections. That in the past, with Celestine V for instance, a two-living-Pope situation existed is irrelevant. The current law of papal elections makes that situation illegal.

    But Benedict knew that Bergoglio would do what he did. That is why Benedict visited the shrine of Celestine V a few years before the resignation, to draw attention to what was about to happen:

    https://www.npr.org/2013/02/26/172890937/the-hermit-pope-who-set-the-precedent-for-benedict-xvi

    Benedict made this strange trip to see Celestine V in 2009. Benedict was giving a clue that he was being treated unjustly like Celestine V and would suffer a similar fate...being forced to resign against his will.

    The difference? In the time of Celestine V, there was NO LAW OF PAPAL ELECTIONS. Celestine V was told (by the man who was to be his successor) that it was okay for him (Celestine) to resign and for a new conclave to be held. These events caused problems in the Church because of the two-living-Pope problem.

    Universi Dominici Gregis makes it EXPLICITLY illegal to do what was done in the time of Celestine V. But it was done anyway by Bergoglio and his minions. This is why Bergoglio's election was null and void. The Emperor has no clothes!

    https://americanliterature.com/author/hans-christian-andersen/short-story/the-emperors-new-clothes



    Offline Emile

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #22 on: August 14, 2023, 03:03:53 PM »
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  • Emile, you seem to think that I claim that a Pope can't resign. That is not my position. Of course a Pope can resign as Canon 332.2 allows.

    However, even if the Pope does resign, the Apostolic See is not completely vacant, until that Pope dies. A new election is only triggered after the complete vacancy of the Apostolic See, which can occur only upon the death of the Pontiff. The idea of having a "pope emeritus" and another acting Pope at the same time is not allowed by current Church law.

    Upon the resignation of a Pope, the Apostolic See is still occupied by the members of the Roman Curia until the death of the Pope. See UDG section 14 which says:

    14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus,13 at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office. An exception is made for the Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church and the Major Penitentiary, who continue to exercise their ordinary functions, submitting to the College of Cardinals matters that would have had to be referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Let's now look at Pastor Bonus Article 6:

    Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    So, going back to your quote from UDG 77, you should be able to better understand the meaning of the phrase "even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff." The correct interpretation can be paraphrased thus:

    "even if the Pope resigns according to Canon 332.2 (which he can do), the type of partial "vacancy" created by that papal resignation does not mean that the requirements of UDG (concerning waiting for the death of the Pope to hold an election) can be ignored. In fact, if those requirements are ignored, the election is null and void."

    You have to understand that a papal "resignation" does not allow creating of a two-living-Pope situation. There can ever be only one living Pope, according to this current law of papal elections. That in the past, with Celestine V for instance, a two-living-Pope situation existed is irrelevant. The current law of papal elections makes that situation illegal.

    But Benedict knew that Bergoglio would do what he did. That is why Benedict visited the shrine of Celestine V a few years before the resignation, to draw attention to what was about to happen:

    https://www.npr.org/2013/02/26/172890937/the-hermit-pope-who-set-the-precedent-for-benedict-xvi

    Benedict made this strange trip to see Celestine V in 2009. Benedict was giving a clue that he was being treated unjustly like Celestine V and would suffer a similar fate...being forced to resign against his will.

    The difference? In the time of Celestine V, there was NO LAW OF PAPAL ELECTIONS. Celestine V was told (by the man who was to be his successor) that it was okay for him (Celestine) to resign and for a new conclave to be held. These events caused problems in the Church because of the two-living-Pope problem.

    Universi Dominici Gregis makes it EXPLICITLY illegal to do what was done in the time of Celestine V. But it was done anyway by Bergoglio and his minions. This is why Bergoglio's election was null and void. The Emperor has no clothes!

    https://americanliterature.com/author/hans-christian-andersen/short-story/the-emperors-new-clothes

    This is exactly why I prefaced my post with
    I'm sure that it is useless to point this out...

    I simply was showing that your statement
    ...The most obvious (elephant-in-the-room) problem is that Universi Dominici Gregis requires that the previous Pope to have died BEFORE a new election could be held.
    is flat-out false.

    With this, and several of your other recent posts, using the most gentle phrasing that I can muster, I cannot but conclude that your understanding of Ecclesial matters is rather novel.
    Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2023, 03:19:11 PM »
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  • This is exactly why I prefaced my post with
    I simply was showing that your statementis flat-out false.

    With this, and several of your other recent posts, using the most gentle phrasing that I can muster, I cannot but conclude that your understanding of Ecclesial matters is rather novel.

    Yes, my understanding is (unfortunately) novel. But if you will do more that just use control-f to find the word you are looking for to justify your misunderstanding, and instead actually read and study the entire docuмent (and all of the footnoted material in the docuмent), then you might find that you too have a "novel" understanding.

    Intellectual laziness, on the other hand, will keep you right in the middle of the herd with all the others who are admiring the Emperor's new clothes.

    Bergoglio is the Antichrist. He is a non-canonically-elected Antipope. He is the Beast of the Earth in Apocalypse 13. He is the Man of Sin in 2 Thessalonians 2. Wake up!

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #24 on: August 14, 2023, 03:27:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    Bergoglio is the Antichrist.
    Uhhh...no.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #25 on: August 14, 2023, 03:45:37 PM »
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  • Uhhh...no.

    Yes, it is true. And he will deceive "even the elect." Don't be that guy, Pax. May Our Lord remove your blinders.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #26 on: August 14, 2023, 03:55:16 PM »
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  • Yes, it is true. And he will deceive "even the elect." Don't be that guy, Pax. May Our Lord remove your blinders.

    Are you affiliated with the book, "To Deceive the Elect: The Catholic Doctrine on the Question of a Heretical Pope"?

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #27 on: August 14, 2023, 04:27:56 PM »
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  • Are you affiliated with the book, "To Deceive the Elect: The Catholic Doctrine on the Question of a Heretical Pope"?



    I haven't read it. I have another book of his. The second in the series. 

    Why are you always asking personal questions? Are you "the fuzz," Meg?



    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #28 on: August 14, 2023, 08:16:08 PM »
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  • Cardinal Billot and St. Alphonsus were expressing theological opinions. Those opinions were later negated by subsequent papal Apostolic Constitutions. An authentic Papal decree overrides a mere theological opinion.
    At first glance the decree seems to contradict St. Alphonsus, but read him again.  St. Alphonsus (and others) say that the universal acceptance of the new pope makes him truly the pope, even if the election was fraudulent.

    A pope elected according to the laws would be pope from the moment the election was concluded.  Perhaps a large number would despise the outcome and erect an antipope, yet by virtue of the legitimate election, the new pope would still be pope.

    A candidate elected illegitimately would not be pope by virtue of the election, but would become pope because of the universal acceptance of the Church.  The decree and St. Alphonsus are actually dealing with two separate questions.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #29 on: August 14, 2023, 08:42:47 PM »
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  • At first glance the decree seems to contradict St. Alphonsus, but read him again.  St. Alphonsus (and others) say that the universal acceptance of the new pope makes him truly the pope, even if the election was fraudulent.

    A pope elected according to the laws would be pope from the moment the election was concluded.  Perhaps a large number would despise the outcome and erect an antipope, yet by virtue of the legitimate election, the new pope would still be pope.

    A candidate elected illegitimately would not be pope by virtue of the election, but would become pope because of the universal acceptance of the Church.  The decree and St. Alphonsus are actually dealing with two separate questions.

    So if I break into your house while you are out of town, change the locks and sell your house, would I get to keep the money from the home sale? After all, I was "universally-accepted" by the locksmith, the realtor, the banker, the neighbors, etc. Does that sound right to you?

    If ignoring the papal election law and getting away with it is as good as following the law, why have the law in the first place? Do you see how perverse that is?

    The Universal and Peaceful acceptance theory does not apply in the case of Bergoglio whose election was subject to the very specific law of Universi Dominici Gregis. In the distant past, when there were not specific laws governing papal elections, UPA theory could apply.