Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)  (Read 10330 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NIFH

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 213
  • Reputation: +60/-29
  • Gender: Male
Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
« Reply #150 on: August 28, 2023, 09:34:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is objectively obvious that Jorge Bergoglio, the antipope, is familiar with the true Catholic dogma on the matters discussed in Amoris Laetitia.
    Given his mis-education, and taking into account his stated intention to teach in accordance with the Faith, it is objectively unclear if the pope has ever understood fundamental Catholic teaching as much as our five-year-olds do.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1158
    • Reputation: +489/-94
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #151 on: August 28, 2023, 10:06:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Given his mis-education, and taking into account his stated intention to teach in accordance with the Faith, it is objectively unclear if the pope has ever understood fundamental Catholic teaching as much as our five-year-olds do.

    Will you also say that his "mis-education" is to blame for him saying this:

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/analysis/breaking-pope-francis-appears-to-reject-the-idea-that-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs-are-called-to-chastity/


    Quote
    Since [practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs] are virtuous in other areas of their lives, and know the doctrine, can we say that they are all in error, because they do not feel, in conscience, that their relationships are sinful? And how can we act pastorally so that these people feel, in their way of life, called by God to a healthy affective life that produces fruit? Should we recognize that their relationships can open up and give seeds of true Christian love, such as the good they can accomplish, the response they can give to the Lord?

    He says the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs can give "seeds" [semente] of "true Christian love" in their "relationships." This is the Holy Father, the Pope, right? Just got a "mis-education" in Argentina, I guess.


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12007
    • Reputation: +7544/-2273
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #152 on: August 28, 2023, 10:34:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Angelus, some canons are quite clear and require no interpretation.  But the canons you quote DO require legal guidance because 1) some theologians argue that canon law doesn’t even apply to a pope (in the case of temporal penalties…spiritual penalties always apply), and 2) when multiple canons are involved, then things get hairy. 

    If you get a canon lawyer to back up your case, then I’ll agree with you.  (That’s why they go to school, by the way, because canon law isn’t straightforward).  As it is, I reject your legal theory.  And that’s all it is, a theory.  

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #153 on: August 29, 2023, 06:40:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • To "defect from the faith" is to be guilty of either heresy or apostasy. Rather than use both of those terms, the law simply uses a single word to encompass the meaning of both of those more specific words.

    You seem to think that "to defect from the Catholic faith" is synonymous with "to defect from the Catholic Church." But that is clearly wrong, which you can see by looking at Canon 194 §1.2 again,

    Here is the relevant part of the Canon:

    Meg, Canon 194 §1.2 refers to two different possible defections:

    1) a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith
    OR
    2) a person who has publicly defected from the communion of the Church;

    If to "defect from the Catholic faith" means the same thing as to "leave the Church" (as you seem to think), what does to "defect from the communion of the Church" mean?

    Angelus, it is no use to explain to Meg.  I already showed her black and white evidence that leaving the Catholic Church is not the exclusive meaning of defecting from the Catholic Faith.  She refused to accept that black and white evidence.

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #154 on: August 29, 2023, 06:58:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • When a pope is a suspect of heresy, the bishops can convene, not to determine if he is pope, nor to determine if he is a formal heretic.  If he has admitted heresy himself, he loses office automatically without any need for the bishops to meet.  The bishops gather to confront the pope with his heresy.  If after the confrontation he does not renounce his heresy, at that moment he becomes a formal heretic and loses his office.  The bishops don't remove him, it is beyond their authority.  Our Lord removes him, and only after he remains obstinate after the confrontation of the bishops.

    There is a difference between being suspect of heresy and being manifestly heretical.  The most obvious example of the latter is if the heretic were himself to admit he is a heretic.  However, it is not necessary for one to admit he is a heretic to be manifestly heretical.  Manifest heresy can be ascertained by even a simple layman.  Canon 188.4º of the 1917 Code supports my assertion:

    "Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: A fide catholica publice defecerit."

    "Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: Publicly defects from the Catholic faith."

    ANY office BECOMES VACANT upon the FACT of public defection from the Catholic Faith WITHOUT any declaration.  Therefore, this canon recognizes that the declaration by a competent authority is not necessary for the loss of office.  A fact is perceived by the senses and apprehended by the intellect.  Therefore, a judgment (private, without juridical force) of public defection, when there is sufficient evidence, can be made by a simple layman.  If this was not the case, then Canon 188.4º would not make sense in stating that the loss of office occurs without any declaration because if one cannot make the judgment on his own despite the factual evidence and the Church does not make a declaration, how would anybody know that the loss of office took place?  Canon 188.4º is therefore made futile by such an erroneous interpretation.  

    Now nowhere in this canon or in the explanations by canonists does it require that the heretic admit he is a heretic for Canon 188.4º to take effect. 


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #155 on: August 29, 2023, 09:59:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Angelus, it is no use to explain to Meg.  I already showed her black and white evidence that leaving the Catholic Church is not the exclusive meaning of defecting from the Catholic Faith.  She refused to accept that black and white evidence.

    If formally leaving the Catholic Faith by means of giving a public defection statement is not the exclusive means, then canon law would state that. It does not. So we have to go with what is stated, as it is stated. No "explanation" that you provide changes that simple fact.  
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline NIFH

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 213
    • Reputation: +60/-29
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #156 on: August 29, 2023, 10:50:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is a difference between being suspect of heresy and being manifestly heretical.  The most obvious example of the latter is if the heretic were himself to admit he is a heretic.  However, it is not necessary for one to admit he is a heretic to be manifestly heretical.  Manifest heresy can be ascertained by even a simple layman.  Canon 188.4º of the 1917 Code supports my assertion:

    "Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: A fide catholica publice defecerit."

    "Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric: Publicly defects from the Catholic faith."

    ANY office BECOMES VACANT upon the FACT of public defection from the Catholic Faith WITHOUT any declaration.  Therefore, this canon recognizes that the declaration by a competent authority is not necessary for the loss of office.  A fact is perceived by the senses and apprehended by the intellect.  Therefore, a judgment (private, without juridical force) of public defection, when there is sufficient evidence, can be made by a simple layman.  If this was not the case, then Canon 188.4º would not make sense in stating that the loss of office occurs without any declaration because if one cannot make the judgment on his own despite the factual evidence and the Church does not make a declaration, how would anybody know that the loss of office took place?  Canon 188.4º is therefore made futile by such an erroneous interpretation. 

    Now nowhere in this canon or in the explanations by canonists does it require that the heretic admit he is a heretic for Canon 188.4º to take effect.

    The public defection must be formal.  'Formal' has a precise definition that everyone else uses, even if you personally decide to reinvent the term.

    A young parish priest misunderstands a doctrine and publicly pronounces heresy in his sermon.  By your interpretation, the fact of his public defection removes him from his office as parish priest.  All Mrs. Jones needs to do is work out in her own mind that, really, Fr. Black clearly knows better and is trying to pull a fast one.

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #157 on: August 29, 2023, 11:08:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If formally leaving the Catholic Faith by means of giving a public defection statement is not the exclusive means, then canon law would state that. It does not. So we have to go with what is stated, as it is stated. No "explanation" that you provide changes that simple fact. 

    Where does the canon state that "publicly defects from the Catholic Faith" means "formally leaves the Catholic Church"? 


    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 797
    • Reputation: +238/-79
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #158 on: August 29, 2023, 11:10:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The public defection must be formal.  'Formal' has a precise definition that everyone else uses, even if you personally decide to reinvent the term.

    Please provide a precise definition of "formal" and the source of your definition.

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #159 on: August 29, 2023, 11:57:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where does the canon state that "publicly defects from the Catholic Faith" means "formally leaves the Catholic Church"?

    What else could defecting mean? 

    Here's an online dictionary that provides a definition:

    "Defect

    "To leave a country, political party, etc., especially in order to join an opposing one.

    "Example: ""The British spy, Kim Philby, defected to the Soviet Union from Britain in 1963.""

    DEFECTING | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1158
    • Reputation: +489/-94
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #160 on: August 29, 2023, 01:01:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What else could defecting mean?

    Here's an online dictionary that provides a definition:

    "Defect

    "To leave a country, political party, etc., especially in order to join an opposing one.

    "Example: ""The British spy, Kim Philby, defected to the Soviet Union from Britain in 1963.""

    DEFECTING | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary

    Meg, the problem is not with the definition of the word "defect." The problem is that Canon 194 tells us what the defection is from, specifically:

    EITHER
    1. from the Catholic faith
    OR
    2. from communion of the Church

    So, in Canon 194, the verb "defect" applies to both cases. Each case is different. Defection from "the faith" means either "heresy" or "apostasy." Defection from "communion of the Church" means "schism."

    Neither of those things means what you claim it means. You say that you mean "formally leaving the Catholic Faith by means of giving a public defection statement." The concept you are referring to is called a formal "defection from the Catholic Church." That concept is discussed in the Vatican docuмent that I linked to above.



    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #161 on: August 29, 2023, 01:33:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg, the problem is not with the definition of the word "defect." The problem is that Canon 194 tells us what the defection is from, specifically:

    EITHER
    1. from the Catholic faith
    OR
    2. from communion of the Church

    So, in Canon 194, the verb "defect" applies to both cases. Each case is different. Defection from "the faith" means either "heresy" or "apostasy." Defection from "communion of the Church" means "schism."

    Neither of those things means what you claim it means. You say that you mean "formally leaving the Catholic Faith by means of giving a public defection statement." The concept you are referring to is called a formal "defection from the Catholic Church." That concept is discussed in the Vatican docuмent that I linked to above.

    True, the problem may not be with what seems obvious to me regarding "defect."  However, your definition, which also requires a further definition, doesn't work, since the canon law in question doesn't say anything about heresy. 

    Also, as has been pointed out I believe already on this thread, it isn't known for sure that this canon law would apply to a Pope. So the matter is far from settled, as the Benevacantists seem to believe. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1158
    • Reputation: +489/-94
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #162 on: August 29, 2023, 02:38:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • True, the problem may not be with what seems obvious to me regarding "defect."  However, your definition, which also requires a further definition, doesn't work, since the canon law in question doesn't say anything about heresy.

    Also, as has been pointed out I believe already on this thread, it isn't known for sure that this canon law would apply to a Pope. So the matter is far from settled, as the Benevacantists seem to believe.

    Meg, a person who is a formally, publicly, and obstinately rejects a de fide teaching of the Catholic faith (e.g., denies that divorce and remarriage is a mortal sin that prevents a person from worthily receiving the Eucharist) no longer has any legitimate authority to "teach" Catholics. He is a heretic. It doesn't matter if he is a school teacher, a theologian, a priest, a bishop or "the Pope."

    Canon 194 says that he automatically loses his office. The seat in that office becomes "legally vacant" automatically. 

    You seem to be saying that if "the Pope" told everyone, definitively, that Jesus was not God, he would still be the Pope, as long as he didn't also formal make a declaration that he was leaving the Catholic Church. And you, Meg, would be obliged to continue to call him "the Pope." Is that what you would do, Meg?

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #163 on: August 29, 2023, 03:23:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg, a person who is a formally, publicly, and obstinately rejects a de fide teaching of the Catholic faith (e.g., denies that divorce and remarriage is a mortal sin that prevents a person from worthily receiving the Eucharist) no longer has any legitimate authority to "teach" Catholics. He is a heretic. It doesn't matter if he is a school teacher, a theologian, a priest, a bishop or "the Pope."

    Canon 194 says that he automatically loses his office. The seat in that office becomes "legally vacant" automatically.

    You seem to be saying that if "the Pope" told everyone, definitively, that Jesus was not God, he would still be the Pope, as long as he didn't also formal make a declaration that he was leaving the Catholic Church. And you, Meg, would be obliged to continue to call him "the Pope." Is that what you would do, Meg?

    You do realize that this subject has been debated for a long time here, right? 

    Your interpretation for that canon doesn't work. No, it doesn't say that a Pope that publicly promotes heretical views automatically loses his office. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1158
    • Reputation: +489/-94
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #164 on: August 29, 2023, 03:39:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You do realize that this subject has been debated for a long time here, right?

    Your interpretation for that canon doesn't work. No, it doesn't say that a Pope that publicly promotes heretical views automatically loses his office.

    You didn't answer my question, Meg. 

    If "the Pope" stated publicly, definitively, and obstinately that Jesus was not God, but merely a man, would he still be the Pope?