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Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
« on: August 12, 2023, 09:55:52 PM »
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  • DCCCXXXIX #839
    August 12, 2023

    TWO KINDS of BISHOP – V

    Getting to Heaven is a major enterprise,
    Excluding even the shadow of compromise.

    It is time to tie together and bring to an end this series of five issues of these “Comments,” because, circling around the theme of what kind of bishops are needed today for the survival of the Catholic Faith tomorrow, the first four issues have ranged over a variety of topics. Here they are in brief:—

    July 15: To obtain good bishops, changeless Catholic Truth outweighs today’s Catholic Authority.

    July 22: Archbishop Lefebvre put Truth first. His re-oriented Society of St Pius X prefers Authority.

    July 29: All of us must pray for that Authority, none of us may act as though we can take its place.

    Aug.05: Nor can any ambiguous compromise with today’s Rome truly serve the interests of God.

    The conclusion to be drawn from these four issues of the “Comments” is that Archbishop Lefebvre was not only right in 1988 when he consecrated four bishops against Rome’s express disapproval, but his re-oriented Newsociety (as it may be called because of its re-orientation officially adopted in 2012) was wrong when it then chose to wait upon Rome’s approval to obtain the new bishops it so much needs. It needs them to protect the Faith of a multitude of far-flung souls turning to it as a refuge from the many and resolute heresies of a Rome held in the vice-like grip of the enemies of God. But the Newsociety will hardly serve as a refuge if it insists on negotiating with these destroyers of the Faith. Can the Newsociety Superiors really not see what liberal crusaders for evil, God has allowed, justly, to take over Rome? The grave underestimation of the evil around them is at the heart of these Superiors’ re-orientation.

    Archbishop Lefebvre had an idea of the danger when he resigned in 1982 as Superior General of what was still then the Society, and put its Superiorate in the hands of younger successors. For at the same time he reserved to himself all questions of relations with Rome. With his long years of direct experience of dealing as Apostolic Delegate to French Africa with Vatican officials, he suspected that the young priests of his Society might prove to be like babes in the wood amidst the wolves and sharks at work in the Vatican, and so it turned out, because the Big Bad Wolf had such lovely teeth, as Little Red Riding Hood told him! “All the better with which to devour you, my darling,” came the answer. And since modernist minds have lost objective truth, all the more power to deceive do the “sincere” lies of Roman officials have. Subjectively, they are “sincere,” especially lovely teeth! Objectively, they are deadly.

    Young priests of the Newsociety, have you been given to believe that the Society of 2012 is the true Society of Archbishop Lefebvre? If so, you resemble many young priests of the mainstream Church who were only ever taught that Vatican II is the true Catholic Church. But by the grace of God and by their own good will, a number of them are now waking up to the fact that they were sold a dummy, and they are looking for the truth, and you may know how some of them are even looking towards what was the Archbishop’s Society. By the continuing grace of God, they may realise, like yourselves, that his Society is running a grave risk by wanting to rejoin apostate Rome – and that is a grave risk because if anyone wants something for long enough, he is liable to get what he wants. Young man, beware of your wishes!

    What was the wisdom of the Archbishop himself? He said, it is Superiors who mould subjects, not the other way round, so to dream of rejoining Rome in order to convert it, is a dangerous dream. And on Vatican II he said, its danger is not so much even in the grave particular errors of religious liberty, collegiality or ecuмenism, it is in the all-pervading subjectivism which radically undermines all objective truth together with any of the demands it makes upon us. What can possibly remain of the Catholic Faith?

    Dear young priests, get hold of any texts of the Archbishop himself, and devour them, but beware of editions so doctored by the Newsociety as to cut out anything running contrary to its Newness . . .

    Kyrie eleison
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #1 on: August 12, 2023, 10:37:27 PM »
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  • July 15: To obtain good bishops, changeless Catholic Truth outweighs today’s Catholic Authority.

    https://stdominicchapel.org/articles/Faith_or_Apostolic_Authority

    Faith or Apostolic Authority: Which Comes First?
    Most Rev. Donald J. Sanborn

    An answer to an objection against sedevacantism.

     
    OBJECTION: Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II are legitimately elected Popes. They are in possession of apostolic succession and of apostolic authority to teach, rule, and sanctify the Church. The teaching of Vatican II, as well as the reforms promulgated by these Popes should be accepted as the teaching and discipline of the Catholic Church. To subject these teachings and disciplines to scrutiny and rejection, is to fall into the error of private interpretation.
     
    RESPONSE: As the reader may expect, I reject this analysis of the current situation, that is, that the refusal of Vatican II and the subsequent changes are an exercise in private interpretation. Rather the refusal, as I said in Dissent of Faith, springs from the very act of divine and catholic Faith, which, at one and the same time, assents to the truth which is revealed by God and proposed by the Church, and dissents from its logical contradictory.
          For example, we assent, by faith, to the proposition that Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist; at the same time, we dissent from the proposition that Christ is not really present in the Holy Eucharist. The dissent is as strong as the assent, and there is no faith without the dissent from what is opposed to the truths of the faith. Hence the Church not only proposes the truth, but condemns infallibly what is contrary to it.
          But Vatican II and the post-Vatican II “universal ordinary magisterium” has contradicted the teaching of the Catholic Church on many points. Therefore the Catholic must give his dissent, if he is to remain faithful to his Baptism.
          This dissent, in turn, gives rise, through a few simple logical steps, to a dogmatic fact that the perpetrator of the false teaching could not possibly be teaching with the authority of Christ. This would be blasphemous, and contrary to the promises of Christ.
          This argument does not even touch on the personal orthodoxy of the post-conciliar “popes”. It is a mere comparison of the ordinary universal magisterium of the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Church. While faith is above reason, it is not opposed to reason, and the faith cannot tolerate a contradiction in teaching any more than reason can.
           The recognition of the true Church is not an act of faith but an act of reason. As Garrigou-Lagrange puts it in his De Revelatione, man must be brought to the conclusion that it is reasonable to make an act of faith in the Catholic Church.  Apologetics must bring a reasonable person to the point that he recognizes that the Catholic Church has the signs of being the one, true Church of Christ.
          An absolute requirement of the genuineness of the true Church of Christ is that it not contradict itself in its official doctrine. For contradiction in official doctrine would be a certain sign of human corruption and of a purely human institution. Therefore even before the act of faith, the oneness of doctrine — the non-contradiction of doctrine — of the Catholic Church must be apparent to all, even to those who do not have the faith.
          Vatican II destroys, therefore, the entire apologetical argument of the Catholic Church, for it clearly contradicts on:
          (1) religious liberty (condemned by Mirari vos of Gregory XVI and by Quanta Cura of Pius IX);
          (2) the unity and unicity of the Catholic Church as the one true Church (the ecclesiology of Vatican II was condemned by Pius XII in Mystici Corporis);
          (3) ecuмenism (condemned by the Apostolic Letter of Pius VIII, Summo iugiter of Gregory XVI, and Mortalium animos  of Pius XI).
          The New Missal, furthermore, contains a heretical definition of the Mass. This is to mention only a few of the problems of Vatican II, but these are sufficient, indeed, one contradiction would be sufficient.
          The objection argues essentially that these teachings cannot be contradictory since they come from a duly elected Roman Pontiff, who cannot err in teaching and legislating concerning these matters. If there is contradiction, it must be only apparent, and a benign interpretation of the docuмents would solve the problem.
          I respond that in these points Vatican II is clearly contradictory — virtually word for word in some cases — and that the faith must reject these contradictions with even more vehemence than reason would. Your argument requires the faith to do what is intrinsically impossible, even for God, which is to affirm and deny the same thing at the same time.
          The faith cannot say that the statement “Mary was not assumed body and soul into heaven” is somehow reconcilable with the statement, “Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven”. Any church which would demand such an assent from its adherents, despite whatever “interpretation” may be given to it, is certainly not the Church, and would never stand the test of time, since it does not stand the test of reason.
          The acceptance of Vatican II and its reforms as Catholic does immeasurable harm to, in fact destroys, the unity of faith of the Catholic Church, and ruins the entire apologetical structure, which is its appeal to reason and common sense.
          The objection argues that the Church’s apostolicity is a sufficient guarantee of the orthodoxy of Vatican II. But apostolicity, thus understood, is excessively restricted, for the Church must be apostolic not only in its succession of popes and bishops, but also in its doctrine, worship, and government.
          Fr. Schultes O.P., in his De Ecclesia Catholica defines apostolicity in this manner:
    Nota apostolicitatis est charisma et proprietas Ecclesiæ qua per legitimam, publicam et numquam interruptam pastorum ab Apostolis successionem in identitate fidei, cultus et regiminis continuatur. (Emphasis mine.)
     [“The note of apostolicity is the charism and property of the Church by which it is continued through a legitimate, public and never interrupted succession of pastors from the Apostles in identity of faith, worship and discipline.”]
          Thus apostolicity is not saved if there is not an identity of faith, worship, and discipline throughout the successive pontificates. For as nearly all the authors point out, the succession must be formal and not merely material, i.e., there must be a single apostolic authority exercised by the diverse titulars of the authority. It is this oneness of divinely assisted apostolic authority which ensures the oneness of faith, worship, and government.  Therefore lack of identity of faith, worship and discipline is an infallible sign of lack of divinely assisted apostolic authority.
          But Vatican II has broken the identity of faith, worship, and discipline, from which it follows that the authority which has promulgated this non-identical — non-catholic — faith, worship, and discipline cannot be apostolic authority, since apostolic authority is incapable of doing such a thing. What is left in the Vatican is a purely material succession of popes, i.e., the pure possession of the see without the authority which naturally accompanies it. As far as authority goes, the see is vacant, and the Church is in the same condition, authority-wise, as when a Pope dies and another has not been elected.
          The objection is, if I understand it correctly: if there is apostolic succession, there is unity of faith. My response is: if there is lack of unity of faith, there is no (formal) apostolic succession. Both of these arguments, stated here as hypothetical major premises, are true. Their value in a conclusion is dependent upon the verification of the condition. Now the question is: which is prior? Apostolic succession or faith?
          I answer faith. Faith is metaphysically prior to authority, since authority consists in a relation of the public person to the community, the basis of which is the furtherance of the common good of the community. But it is the Faith which determines the common good, the finality, of the Church. Hence the profession of the true Faith is a condition sine qua non of the assumption of apostolic authority in the Church, and it (the Faith) must be verified before apostolic succession is verified. But Vatican II, the New Mass, and the New Code, contain contradiction to the teaching of the Church. This contradiction is therefore an  infallible sign that the material incuмbent of the throne of Peter lacks or lacked the necessary qualities to assume apostolic authority, for we must believe by the virtue of divine and catholic faith that it is intrinsically impossible that apostolic authority contradict itself in faith, worship and discipline, whereas it is not impossible, either by faith or reason, that an incuмbent pope lose his authority.  Therefore the succession which Montini, Luciani, and Wojtyla enjoy is a purely material succession, i.e., they have been named by legal process to a position in which they are disposed to accept this authority.
          I agree that an authoritative witness (e.g. a diocesan bishop) is necessary for the authoritative recognition of the non-papacy of Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II, but I maintain that the private, even collective recognition of the fact by the faithful is both right and obligatory. For the individual baptized Catholic has an obligation to reject what is contrary to the Faith. He therefore rejects Vatican II as contrary to the Faith. When the hierarchy which has accepted and promulgated Vatican II tells him to accept it, he must reject their apostolic authority based on his prior rejection of Vatican II by his virtue of faith.
          This is the entire sense of Galatians, I: 8, where St. Paul warns the faithful to anathematize himself, an apostle (“though we...”) if they find that his doctrine does not match what they have already heard from him. According to the theory described in the objection, this text would read, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, you must accept the new gospel because it is preached you by an apostle, and just figure that there is no contradiction between the two.”
          St. Paul obviously charges the faithful with the verification of the identity of the Faith in their apostolic teachers as a condition for accepting them. In fact, if this Faith is lacking, the command is: let him be anathema.
          According to the apostolic command, therefore, the faithful must verify the teaching of those elected to apostolic positions, at least implicitly by being ready to reject them, anathematize them, if they should teach a false doctrine. This is an unassailable argument which is properly theological, as it argues from the authority of St. Paul, that the identity of faith is prior to apostolic authority, and that the faithful themselves, and not necessarily bishops, can and must recognize the identity or lack of identity of the Faith.
          I concede to you, however, that the authoritative anathema must come from the authority of the Church. It is this authoritative anathema which we all pray for and hope for. In the meantime, we gather in St. Peter’s Square and shout to JP 2 one collective, unauthoritative but thunderous ANATHEMA!
          The method which the objection proposes is to say that Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II are unmistakably the successors of St. Peter, have been elected by due process, and having been recognized as such by the entire Catholic hierarchy. Therefore they have apostolic authority. Therefore their doctrine, worship, and discipline is infallibly Catholic, and any contradiction must be held by the faith to be only apparent and not real.
          I respond by saying that the act of faith, being an act of assent of the intellect, is made with an implicit affirmation of the principle of contradiction, which principle cannot, by metaphysical impossibility, bear its contradictory. To recall the example cited above, the intellect cannot assent to, at the same time, the proposition Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist and Christ is not really present in the Holy Eucharist.  To do so would be the equivalent of asserting that a circle is a square, which is intrinsically impossible. 
          The type of act which Vatican II is requiring of the faith is an impossible act, i.e., to assent to contradictory teaching, especially with the motive of God revealing and divinely assisted apostolic authority proposing. 
          On the other hand, what is not impossible, indeed what is seen as quite possible by many theologians, is the loss of papal power by an incuмbent. The act of faith, therefore, in refusing the impossible and sinful act of asserting the opposite of what it assents to by faith, turns back and rightfully and necessarily refuses to recognize the apostolic authority in the promulgator. [1]
          To demand the acceptance of the contradictions of Vatican II in its doctrines, worship, and discipline is to demand that the faithful posit the impossible act of asserting contradictory propositions with the highest certitude. This ruins the unity of faith, without which neither sanctity, apostolicity or catholicity can survive as properties of the Catholic Church. For there is no sanctification without supernatural truth, and there is no supernatural truth without unity of truth. There is no catholicity without unity of faith, for catholicity — universality —  by definition is one thing applied to many (unum versus alia) .
          Finally, as we have seen above, there is no apostolicity without unity of faith, for unity of faith is a necessary condition of the possession of apostolic authority. The acceptance of Vatican II and its reforms therefore places the Church in radical absurdity, strips her of her four marks, and reduces her to being a purely human institution. The refusal of Vatican II, its reforms, and the authenticity of the “popes” who promulgated it, on the other hand, retains the unity of faith, retains the four marks, retains the indefectibility of the Church.
          The moral continuity of the hierarchy is assured by the (1) material succession, and (2) by the fact that the Church awaits a formal successor, that is, someone to assume apostolic power. This expectation of the Church of a new pope, as well as the recognition of the power of the papacy, provides the moral continuity from pope to pope in the vacancy of the see at any pope’s death.
          Furthermore, the faith’s necessary rejection of apostolic authority in Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II is overwhelmingly confirmed by the shambles to which the Church has been reduced as a result of Vatican II. I cite the undeniable fact that there has been a total and unprecedented breakdown of faith in the institutions which were once Catholic.
          This breakdown of faith, this Great Apostasy of which St. Paul and the Catechism of the Council of Trent speak, is a direct result of this intrinsic disorder of Vatican II. Having lived before, during and after the Council, I can assure you that this Council was the cause of the breakdown of faith. The Catholic Faith was intact in the institutions the Church before Vatican II; it disappeared gradually as John XXIII and Paul VI instituted the reforms of the Council.
          The principal reason for this breakdown is the false doctrine of religious liberty and ecuмenism, which strips, if it were possible, the Catholic Church of its essential quality of being the one, true Church of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation. It strips the Church of its ability to teach with the authority of God, and to bind the consciences of men.
          The great error of Vatican II is the supremacy of the human conscience over the teaching of the Catholic Church. This error is fundamentally protestant and masonic, and is an infallible sign that those who have authoritatively taught it were certainly not teaching it with the authority of Christ. In addition, I cite the absolutely apostatical conduct of the post-conciliar “popes”.
          If you read Peter, Lovest Thou Me?, it is impossible to reconcile Wojtyla’s magisterium or praxis with the Catholic Faith. Yet his utterly disgusting ecuмenical acts are thoroughly in accordance with the Vatican II ecclesiology. He is not assailed as an evildoer by the Vatican II hierarchy, but is rather praised for his apostasy of masonic-style religious indifferentism and liberty of conscience. The principles for this unprecedented breakdown of doctrine, worship, and discipline are contained in Vatican II and the post-Vatican II “universal ordinary magisterium” of the modernist hierarchy.
          Finally, the scenario of Vatican II non-popes is thoroughly in accordance with the programs of the enemies of the Church since the French Revolution. They have desired to place one of their own on the throne of Peter, and have predicted that they would succeed. St. Pius X warned us of modernist infiltration in the ranks of the clergy. Fogazzaro, the apostate priest, in his book, Il Santo, condemned by Saint Pius X, describes a church like that of the Vatican II church, and warns the conspirators never to leave the Church, but rather to be patient and to take it over from within. The movement Rinovamento, also from that period, had the same designs. The Catholic of the twentieth century could therefore expect the situation which we now see before us, and expect to refuse authenticity to the authority which these modernist snakes claim to possess.
    (Sacerdotium 4, Summer 1992).


    [1] What is repugnant from both points of view, i.e., of both the faith and apostolic authority, is to recognize apostolic authority in the post-conciliar Popes, but at the same time to reject their teaching and discipline. It is repugnant from the point of view of the faith, for it removes from the faith its condition sine qua non, which is the proposition of the Church, for if the Church is fallible in its proposition of truths, it cannot be a condition of the faith. It is repugnant, furthermore, from the point of view of apostolic authority, since such a “picking and choosing” of the teachings and decrees of the authority implicitly denies the infallibility and indefectibility of this authority. Unfortunately this is the position of the Society of Saint Pius X. For them, the true authority which proposes the truths of the Faith infallibly is not the “apostolic authority” of John Paul II, but rather the “authority” of Archbishop Lefebvre. Thus they will accept a teaching, a liturgical practice, or a discipline from John Paul II only if it has been approved by Archbishop Lefebvre. The actual conditio sine qua non of the faith of the adherents of this group is not the auctoritas Ecclesiæ proponentis, but the auctoritas Archiepiscopi proponentis or accipientis. Since his death on March 25, 1991, this group has not yet been subject to the test of a divisive issue, for now that the Archbishop is deceased, the new conditio sine qua non of the faith of the group will be auctoritas Patris Schmidberger proponentis. Whether his authority will have the same pizzazz is yet to be seen. I rather think that, when faced with a crossroads, they will divide up over the question, “What would the Archbishop have done in this case?”

    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #2 on: August 12, 2023, 11:04:54 PM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?

    And what if Lefebvre happened to chance upon Schmidberger unexpectedly in Rome, where he should not have been?

    And what if it could be shown that Lefebvre was working to ensure Schmidberger was not re-elected in 1994, at the time of his death in 1991?

    And what if the SSPX was being sold out from under Lefebvre’s feet while he was still alive?

    And what if Rome cultivated such weakness from one SG to his successor, and thereby succeeded in turning the direction of the entire ship?

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #3 on: August 12, 2023, 11:32:11 PM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?

    And what if Lefebvre happened to chance upon Schmidberger unexpectedly in Rome, where he should not have been?

    And what if it could be shown that Lefebvre was working to ensure Schmidberger was not re-elected in 1994, at the time of his death in 1991?

    And what if the SSPX was being sold out from under Lefebvre’s feet while he was still alive?

    And what if Rome cultivated such weakness from one SG to his successor, and thereby succeeded in turning the direction of the entire ship?

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.

    Sounds ...


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #4 on: August 13, 2023, 05:10:48 AM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?

    And what if Lefebvre happened to chance upon Schmidberger unexpectedly in Rome, where he should not have been?

    And what if it could be shown that Lefebvre was working to ensure Schmidberger was not re-elected in 1994, at the time of his death in 1991?

    And what if the SSPX was being sold out from under Lefebvre’s feet while he was still alive?

    And what if Rome cultivated such weakness from one SG to his successor, and thereby succeeded in turning the direction of the entire ship?

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.
    You can't both fish and tell the story?

    How convincing, clear, and undeniable is the evidence? The SSPX says "show me what's changed". A lot of what I see spoken against them is weak sauce, but modernism can appear as weak sauce as well until one day a person finds themself far from doing God's will. I can't say that I have really observed any significant change, but I haven't been around long enough. I can tell that something isn't right, that the SSPX seems quite soft. One may argue that it is the best and most prudent way to proceed these days, but really it seems to show a lack of faith, at least at this point considering how far the SSPX has come in gathering trads together. Is a life boat a warship? No, but at the same time this is no small raft either. I think the problem is politics, but what is precisely the best policy?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #5 on: August 13, 2023, 09:11:34 AM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?

    And what if Lefebvre happened to chance upon Schmidberger unexpectedly in Rome, where he should not have been?

    And what if it could be shown that Lefebvre was working to ensure Schmidberger was not re-elected in 1994, at the time of his death in 1991?

    And what if the SSPX was being sold out from under Lefebvre’s feet while he was still alive?

    And what if Rome cultivated such weakness from one SG to his successor, and thereby succeeded in turning the direction of the entire ship?

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.

    Those are interesting explanations to try and understand +ABL's motivations.

    Are you implying Fr. Schmidberger is a freemason infiltrator?

    I heard it put in more succinct terms recently.   

    +ABL signed up to start the SSPX as the controlled opposition to the jew pope's new Mass, but then in 1986, he went AWOL to that role and was thus poisoned at a restaurant, leading his slow death of liver cancer.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #6 on: August 13, 2023, 09:27:29 AM »
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  • DCCCXXXIX #839
    August 12, 2023

    TWO KINDS of BISHOP – V

    Getting to Heaven is a major enterprise,
    Excluding even the shadow of compromise.

    It is time to tie together and bring to an end this series of five issues of these “Comments,” because, circling around the theme of what kind of bishops are needed today for the survival of the Catholic Faith tomorrow, the first four issues have ranged over a variety of topics. Here they are in brief:—

    July 15: To obtain good bishops, changeless Catholic Truth outweighs today’s Catholic Authority.
     

    Your Excellency,

    Please advise us how "authority" comes from a Jєω-hijacked, schismatic Church?

    In the year 1130, after years of rallying against the schism of the papal imposter, Anacletus II, St. Bernard Clairvaux marched with Pope Innocent II and a Catholic army on Rome.


               
                Jєω Antipope Anacletus II

    After surrounding what was Vatican City at the time, Anacletus II died of a heart attack.
    The army then assured that Pope Innocent II was re-installed to his rightful Seat.

    While you are not St. Bernard, your Apostolic duty remains to feed the Church's sheep and lambs by ordaining priests, so that they can continue to bring the Sacraments and their graces to the remnant. 


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2023, 09:29:09 AM »
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  • Are you implying Fr. Schmidberger is a freemason infiltrator?

    No.

    The way it was told to me, Fr. Schmidberger has/had a tremendous self-confidence in his abilities to deal with the Romans, which was not shared by +Lefebvre.

    +Lefebvre seems to have been correct, judging by how modernist Rome has ensnared the SSPX after his death.

    Recall how +Fellay was telling us the Roman proposal was not a trap, yet +Ganswein's bio of BXVI explained that they were trying to destroy the SSPX all along.

    In other words, Rome was running circles around Menzingen.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2023, 11:29:33 AM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?
    ...

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.
    Go ahead and tell it but make sure there is enough solid evidence to prove it.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2023, 01:14:06 PM »
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  • What if it could be shown, by the testimony of long-time SSPX priests, that Lefebvre reserved relations with Rome to himself, and the SG Schmidberger, tasked only with administrative details, resented Lefebvre not trusting in him to talk with Rome?

    And what if Lefebvre happened to chance upon Schmidberger unexpectedly in Rome, where he should not have been?

    And what if it could be shown that Lefebvre was working to ensure Schmidberger was not re-elected in 1994, at the time of his death in 1991?

    And what if the SSPX was being sold out from under Lefebvre’s feet while he was still alive?

    And what if Rome cultivated such weakness from one SG to his successor, and thereby succeeded in turning the direction of the entire ship?

    Would anyone be interested in hearing that story, such that it would be worth the effort to tell the story, or would it simply be deemed inconvenient, and ignored?

    Let me know, because I am equally capable of telling that story, or shaking off the dust and just going fishing.

    Sean, your thesis would be providing some historical background to explain the present situation with the neo-SSPX. But I think your time would be better spent continuing to make the case that the current neo-SSPX is obviously boiling the frog slowly.

    There are three main issues:

    1. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The neo-SSPX has not budged on this yet. But look for some sort of compromise with Bergoglio, like agreeing to remove the words "mysterium fidei" from the consecration of the wine so as to show loyalty to "the Pope." Just a small change to "the rubrics." And the SSPX should go along with it since such a change would, in the eyes of the SSPX, "not touch the faith." After all, SSPX (since Lefebvre) has said over and over that "the new form [in the Novus Ordo] is still valid." And that "new form" removed the words "mysterium fidei" from the form of consecration. This will be all that is required to invalidate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as a true sacrifice effected through the two-fold consecration.

    2. The sacerdotal Priesthood. The neo-SSPX now officially accepts NREC holy orders and fake holy oils (Huonder). So this wall has been breached. Look for more changes to come soon, like using NREC bishops for SSPX ordinations. The true sacerdotal priesthood requires real bishops. With such a change, the SSPX becomes just another FSSP. Fake.

    3. The infallibility of the Pope. The SSPX (during Lefebvre) has always been wobbly on this, coming up with a pragmatic solution that did not line up logically with perennial Catholic teaching. The correct answer is the material-formal distinction. Call it Cassiciacuм, sedeprivationism, or whatever. SSPX has been wrong about this from day one. And it is this achilles heel, based on disregard for the principle of non-contradiction, that promotes all of the SSPX errors that follow.

    All of the historical assaults on the Roman Catholic church have been about these three issues (bolded above). The SSPX has caved on 2 out of 3. Look for the next compromise, related to the Mass, to make it 3 out of 3.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2023, 01:20:59 PM »
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  • 3. The infallibility of the Pope. The SSPX (during Lefebvre) has always been wobbly on this, coming up with a pragmatic solution that did not line up logically with perennial Catholic teaching. The correct answer is the material-formal distinction. Call it Cassiciacuм, sedeprivationism, or whatever. SSPX has been wrong about this from day one. And it is this achilles heel, based on disregard for the principle of non-contradiction, that promotes all of the SSPX errors that follow.

    You make it sound like the Sedevacantists actually solved the Crisis in the Church in a 100% satisfactory manner, leaving NO unanswered questions or outstanding issues; everyone who hasn't joined Sedevacantism is just too stupid (or malicious) to see it.

    But the FACTS do not line up. The Sedevacantist world is 100% as chaotic as the non-Sede quarters of the Traditional Movement. Sedevacantists agree on very little. They can't even elect a Pope with any credibility (i.e., ending up with more than 100 followers.) And we're how many years into the "interregnum"? Pope Pius XII died in 1958. The Novus Ordo was released in 1969. Every bit of Sedevacantism is USELESS. USELESS I tell you. It hasn't helped the Crisis ONE IOTA. See my graphic below. Every "good" you could point out from the CMRI, SSPV, etc. goes in the light blue circle -- nothing at all in the purple.

    Conclavist sedevacantists have been a joke up to the present day. Which attempted "pope" hasn't been ridiculed by virtually everyone? And don't get me started on the NON-conclavists. What use is a sedevacantist who makes no effort after 60 years to rectify the "no pope" situation by electing one? To me, a non-conclavist sedevacantist is a contradiction in terms. At least the conclavists are consistent -- albeit they make fools of themselves every time they try to elect a Pope.

    And yes, the Sedevacantists had their chance. I suppose you're going to blame +Lefebvre and his SSPX for being some kind of "compromisers" or "controlled opposition" sucking away all the people and money into a dead end. But I call BS. Firstly, Trads are an independent, stubborn, "thinking for themselves" bunch. They aren't sheep. If 80% of the general public are sheep, it's probably more like 10% of Trads. And today we have the Internet. +Lefebvre never commanded a network of media outlets all parroting the same "party line" (like the MSM today) or any other such power. He never had a stranglehold or monopoly on the hearts and minds of Trads everywhere. He also never had any "allies" from the usual sources: the Novus Ordo, governments, the Media, etc. No, he was opposed every bit as much as any Sede IN EVERY WAY. No, the Trads all came to the SSPX ON THEIR OWN because THEY BELIEVED the SSPX had the safest, most Catholic course -- the best lifeboat for surviving this shipwreck. You'll have to blame them.

    There is STILL an argument to be made, and believed, that +Lefebvre mapped out the best possible course, the best/safest/most Catholic reaction to the Crisis in the Church. I personally believe this.

    I've seen, learned about, and yes considered Sedevacantism many times. I just don't know. But what I do know: I haven't see ANY good come out of Sedevacantism AS SUCH. All the "good things" Sedevacantists might tell friends about their chapels, fellow-parishioners, group, and/or priests are actually proper to the Traditional Movement, not Sedevacantism in particular.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #11 on: August 13, 2023, 01:32:35 PM »
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  • You make it sound like the Sedevacantists actually solved the Crisis in the Church in a 100% satisfactory manner, leaving NO unanswered questions or outstanding issues; everyone who hasn't joined Sedevacantism is just too stupid (or malicious) to see it.

    Not only has no one "solved" the Crisis -- painfully obvious as the Crisis remains and does not look to end soon or via human agency -- but all should be agreed, particularly if one has read the countless visions of the Saints and others, that God ALONE can heal the innumerable, deep, and unspeakable wounds rendering sadly-negligible the influence of Holy Church upon a wicked, disordered, miserable world.  We can make and have made a great mess; God alone can clean it up, especially now.  Happily, although He is under no obligation to do so, He can and has promised to do so.  Hold fast; Godspeed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #12 on: August 13, 2023, 01:37:09 PM »
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  • Not only has no one "solved" the Crisis -- painfully obvious as the Crisis remains and does not look to end soon or via human agency -- but all should be agreed, particularly if one has read the countless visions of the Saints and others, that God ALONE can heal the innumerable, deep, and unspeakable wounds rendering sadly-negligible the influence of Holy Church upon a wicked, disordered, miserable world.  We can make and have made a great mess; God alone can clean it up, especially now.  Happily, although He is under no obligation to do so, He can and has promised to do so.  Hold fast; Godspeed.

    I agree. 


    I've said many times on CathInfo my PERSONAL OPINION on the Crisis, namely: that the Crisis in the Church is literally a SUPERNATURAL MYSTERY, i.e. the mind of man is incapable of solving it using its own power. Just like mankind couldn't have figured out the Trinity without God revealing it, the Crisis will NOT be solved until God steps in.

    Why do I believe this? I have 54 reasons why. One for every year this Crisis has continued, despite countless holy/brilliant/educated men trying to solve it. At this point, if it hasn't been solved, it isn't GOING TO BE -- until God says "Enough" and steps in.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #13 on: August 13, 2023, 01:39:17 PM »
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  • I've seen, learned about, and yes considered Sedevacantism many times. I just don't know. But what I do know: I haven't see ANY good come out of Sedevacantism AS SUCH. All the "good things" Sedevacantists might tell friends about their chapels, fellow-parishioners, group, and/or priests are actually proper to the Traditional Movement, not Sedevacantism in particular.

    I believe all men of goodwill are sincerely trying to hold fast under truly difficult circuмstances.  One of the brightest and best men I know isn't even a Trad, in the sense of practicing his Faith completely outside of the framework of Officialdom.  However, he knows the Faith better than most, is a world-class Canon Lawyer of intellect and virtue greater than I have seen, and is surely more pleasing in God's sight than I.  That nothing legally-binding and definitive has been declared about this situation is, in a way, the greatest obstacle and punishment for our gross infidelity as a people.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Two Kinds of Bishop V (no. 839)
    « Reply #14 on: August 13, 2023, 02:20:44 PM »
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  • You make it sound like the Sedevacantists actually solved the Crisis in the Church in a 100% satisfactory manner, leaving NO unanswered questions or outstanding issues; everyone who hasn't joined Sedevacantism is just too stupid (or malicious) to see it.

    But the FACTS do not line up. The Sedevacantist world is 100% as chaotic as the non-Sede quarters of the Traditional Movement. Sedevacantists agree on very little. They can't even elect a Pope with any credibility (i.e., ending up with more than 100 followers.) And we're how many years into the "interregnum"? Pope Pius XII died in 1958. The Novus Ordo was released in 1969. Every bit of Sedevacantism is USELESS. USELESS I tell you. It hasn't helped the Crisis ONE IOTA. See my graphic below. Every "good" you could point out from the CMRI, SSPV, etc. goes in the light blue circle -- nothing at all in the purple.

    Conclavist sedevacantists have been a joke up to the present day. Which attempted "pope" hasn't been ridiculed by virtually everyone? And don't get me started on the NON-conclavists. What use is a sedevacantist who makes no effort after 60 years to rectify the "no pope" situation by electing one? To me, a non-conclavist sedevacantist is a contradiction in terms. At least the conclavists are consistent -- albeit they make fools of themselves every time they try to elect a Pope.

    And yes, the Sedevacantists had their chance. I suppose you're going to blame +Lefebvre and his SSPX for being some kind of "compromisers" or "controlled opposition" sucking away all the people and money into a dead end. But I call BS. Firstly, Trads are an independent, stubborn, "thinking for themselves" bunch. They aren't sheep. If 80% of the general public are sheep, it's probably more like 10% of Trads. And today we have the Internet. +Lefebvre never commanded a network of media outlets all parroting the same "party line" (like the MSM today) or any other such power. He never had a stranglehold or monopoly on the hearts and minds of Trads everywhere. He also never had any "allies" from the usual sources: the Novus Ordo, governments, the Media, etc. No, he was opposed every bit as much as any Sede IN EVERY WAY. No, the Trads all came to the SSPX ON THEIR OWN because THEY BELIEVED the SSPX had the safest, most Catholic course -- the best lifeboat for surviving this shipwreck. You'll have to blame them.

    There is STILL an argument to be made, and believed, that +Lefebvre mapped out the best possible course, the best/safest/most Catholic reaction to the Crisis in the Church. I personally believe this.

    I've seen, learned about, and yes considered Sedevacantism many times. I just don't know. But what I do know: I haven't see ANY good come out of Sedevacantism AS SUCH. All the "good things" Sedevacantists might tell friends about their chapels, fellow-parishioners, group, and/or priests are actually proper to the Traditional Movement, not Sedevacantism in particular.

    Matthew, I believe that all of the Popes from John XXIII through Benedict XVI were, at least, validly-elected (i.e., "material") Popes. So I am not a "sedevacantist" in any of the ways that you define that term. During that period, the Holy See was not legally-vacant, except for short interregna, until December 31, 2022.

    However, those same validly-elected Popes did not have the "formal" authority to impose anything contrary to perennial, settled Catholic teaching on the faithful. The fact is that certain changes were imposed under their Pontificates that were not Catholic. Either those changes did not come with the authority of the Pope himself or the Pope who promulgated the change was merely a "material" (i.e., non-authoritative) Pope. A real Pope cannot officially promulgate changes that contradict settled Catholic practice and teaching.

    We are in a different era now. Bergoglio is different from all those who came before him. He is NOT EVEN VALIDLY ELECTED. He is a pure antipope based on objective evidence law and fact. Specifically, the 2013 conclave was invalid for one very obvious reason. Benedict XVI was still alive during that election. The law governing papal elections, Universi Dominici Gregis, requires that the previous Pope be dead and buried BEFORE a new election can take place. The details can be found on www.antipope.com.

    FACT: Bergoglio was elected BEFORE Benedict XVI was dead and buried.
    FACT: A papal election is only validly-held AFTER the previous Pope has died and been buried.

    These two simple facts reveal a contradiction. Bergoglio's election was illegitimate. He is an antipope with zero authority. He is not even a "material" Pope. The fact that Bergoglio, of all people, is the favorite of the SSPX should make clear that something is terribly rotten at the top of the SSPX.

    Yes, it is bound up in the "mystery of iniquity." Only God can save us. Not the SSPX. Not the Resistance. Not Sedevacantism.