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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III  (Read 1338 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
« on: July 10, 2021, 11:56:09 PM »
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    • DCCXXX #730
    July 10, 2021
    Truth and Authority – III
    The Church’s very own structure can give way
    If God Himself will let it go astray.
    With regard to the crisis of the Church, the diagnosis of loyalty to Catholic Truth battling it out ever since Vatican II with loyalty to Catholic Authority (EC 726, June 12) throws much light (EC 728, June 26), but it may have yet more light to throw, on the vexed question of how far defenders of the true Catholic Faith need today to be structured. What one might call normal Catholics will argue that Authority is so intrinsic to the Church that defenders of the Truth with no structure of authority at all among them can only go nowhere, can only finish by dissolving in thin air. What one might call abnormal Catholics will reply, with these “Comments,” that since Catholic Truth is the purpose of Catholic Authority (EC 726), then those who truly possess Catholic Truth need, exceptionally, strictly speaking no further structure to hold them together. For if, as the saying goes, “The Truth is mighty and will prevail,” it will also unite.
    Normally, ever since Our Lord founded His Church, it has had to make its way in hostile territory, namely a world of which the Devil is Prince (Jn. XIV, 30), because of original sin. In this world Jesus threw him out by the Cross (Jn. XII, 31), but He left man with the wounds of original sin, so that man continued to need all the Church’s Authority to protect the Church’s Truth (EC 726). But after 19 centuries Pope Leo XIII was given a vision of God allowing once more full freedom to Satan to attack the Church, so that abnormally, at Vatican II, one century later Satan effectively overwhelmed even Church Authority. How had God now foreseen to protect His Truth from anarchy in His Church? There was never any question of the Church not surviving (Mt. XXVIII, 20). What would God do to protect His Church? Deliberately He had allowed its normal Authority to be broken down. What would He abnormally resort to?
    Surely we can see it all around us. Since 1965 when Vatican II came officially to an end, Catholics have had a half century in which to grow used to an Authority above them growing more and more empty of that Catholic Truth which it is their purpose and justification to teach. Have Catholics abandoned the Church accordingly? Yes, many have turned to false religions or given up religion altogether, but not all. Sheep that are keeping the Faith can be found scattered in all directions by their Shepherd the Pope having been struck, but they are to be found still all over the official Church, in what used to be Ecclesia Dei groups, in the Society of St Pius X, in St Peter’s Fraternity, in the “Resistance,” in sedevacantists and so on and so on. They are liable all to excommunicate one another, but that is not what matters. What matters is the Catholic Truth which they are all more or less hanging onto, unless and until they let go, but that Truth includes that they must all come back under Catholic Authority again as soon as it comes back itself under Catholic Truth, but not before. Anyone can foresee that not all the sheep now scattered will find it equally easy to submit to Authority, but it will be equally necessary if they are to remain Catholics.
    Meanwhile who can say that God has abandoned His sheep? The golden rule is that He never abandons a soul that has not first abandoned Him. In fact many of us can tell of the remarkable ways by which He has individually enabled us to hold onto the Faith, or even return to it, and that includes the crisis of the Church itself. Without the madness of the modernists one might have gone on sleepwalking in the Faith until one died. One may now find it difficult to find a group to which one can attach oneself to live the Faith, but if one searches and keeps searching until one finds what one needs, it is not God who will fail to provide it. For some 40 years the Society of St Pius X was a real oasis in the desert, and still many souls find refuge there. It is being urged now by Archbishop Viganò to keep putting Truth before misguided Authority, Faith before “obedience.”
    Therefore yesterday’s theology manuals (strings of Catholic pearls) were right when they said things like, “No heresy can come from the Pope because then the situation of the Church would be hopeless.” That situation is indeed now humanly hopeless, but the manuals must add in the “humanly,” because they had forgotten that what may indeed be hopeless for men can be child’s play for God.
    Kyrie eleison.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #1 on: July 13, 2021, 10:20:26 AM »
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    • I see Bishop Williamson isn't anti sedevacantist here.  Good to see that.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #2 on: July 13, 2021, 11:24:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 13, 2021, 10:20:26 AM
    I see Bishop Williamson isn't anti sedevacantist here.  Good to see that.

    Indeed, he numbers them among the "sheep that are keeping the Faith" ... despite what the dogmatic R&R folk claim.

    Bishop Williamson is on public record stating that it's possible that the See is vacant.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #3 on: July 13, 2021, 01:04:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 11:24:37 AM
    Indeed, he numbers them among the "sheep that are keeping the Faith" ... despite what the dogmatic R&R folk claim.

    Bishop Williamson is on public record stating that it's possible that the See is vacant.

    Another lie and distortion:

    Bishop Williamson is on record NOT as saying the "Holy See might be vacant," but rather, like Lefebvre, "it is not impossible that the Holy See is vacant."

    Note Lad changing all the emphases to convey and portray the thought as though it were a 50/50 proposition in the mind of Williamson.

    He does the same thing with Lefebvre.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #4 on: July 13, 2021, 01:10:42 PM »
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    • Here's Fr. Cekada accurately describing Bishop Williamson's rejection of sedevacantism:

    "THE MOST REV. Richard N. Williamson, Rector of the Society of St. Pius X's seminary in La Reja, Argentina, is, by general agreement, a colorful character.
      In an August 2006 interview with Stephen Heiner, later published in the SSPX publication The Angelus, His Excellency responded to questions on a broad range of subjects, and did not fail to live up to his reputation.
      One topic Bp. Williamson discussed at some length was sedevacantism. Now in 1980, when I still was a member of the Society of St. Pius X and he was still a simple priest, we had a number of very lively discussions about this.
      Fr. Williamson explained to me his theory about why John Paul II could not be a true heretic, and hence could not automatically lose the papal office, as sedevacantists like myself contend. Half of John Paul II's brain is liberal, and half is Catholic, he told me, So he doesn't really know that what he says is not Catholic!
      It struck me as a perfectly loony idea then a modernist is not responsible for heresy because he.s a modernist? I christened it mentevacantism, from the Latin words for vacant mind.
      In his recent interview, Bp. Williamson is still promoting mentevacantism as an answer to sedevacantism. His current explanation of the theory goes something like this:
      Benedict XVI has a sick modern mind. For this reason, Benedict is unaware of his heresy. Since there is no church authority to make him aware of it, Benedict cannot make a true choice between dogma and heresy. Without this true choice, Benedict is not a real heretic, and so he remains a true pope."

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=86&catname=12

    So, while Fr. Cekada sneered at +Williamson's position, it is abundantly clear, nevertheless, that according to the sedevacantist Cekada, Bishop Williamson is FAAAAAAARRRR from believin in the liklihood of sedevacantism (despite the dishonest spins the sedes like Lad want to place on a turn of phrase from +Williamson or +Lefebvre).

    Note also +Williamson's consistent position from 1980 - 2006.  Will Lad now say (as with his Lefebvre mythology) that Francis has him on the verge of going sede??
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #5 on: July 13, 2021, 01:15:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 11:24:37 AM
    Indeed, he numbers them among the "sheep that are keeping the Faith" ... despite what the dogmatic R&R folk claim.
    Dogmatic R&R folks are probably very uncomfortable with his comments here.  Maybe Bishop Williamson is starting to recognize that we have more in common than not.  Perhaps he is looking towards the future when Ratzinger and Bergoglio finally kick the can.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #6 on: July 13, 2021, 01:21:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 13, 2021, 01:15:41 PM
    Dogmatic R&R folks are probably very uncomfortable with his comments here.  Maybe Bishop Williamson is starting to recognize that we have more in common than not.  Perhaps he is looking towards the future when Ratzinger and Bergoglio finally kick the can.

    Not at all.  He's just explaining that the Shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered (as he's done 100 times before).

    I'm happy you found something in his writing you could latch onto.

    The more you latch onto it, the better off you'll be.

    He just has compassion for your errors, because he knows it isn't ultimately your fault (i.e., You have been left to yourselves to try and arrive at orthodoxy).  Because of that, he wants us to go easy on you (even when -like in the Fr. Cekada excerpt above- you do not reciprocate).
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #7 on: July 13, 2021, 01:40:29 PM »
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    • Nobody really takes your posts seriously, Sean.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #8 on: July 13, 2021, 01:53:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 01:40:29 PM
    Nobody really takes your posts seriously, Sean.
    You mean like sedevacantism?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #9 on: July 13, 2021, 01:54:07 PM »
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    • Dominicans of Avrille:

    Quote
    “As long as sedevacantism remains at the level of personal sentiment or private opinion, there is nothing wrong with it, given the present circuмstances. But it is not proven. It is only one hypothesis amongst others, and not the most probable. It is wrong to make it a dogma and dangerous to make it a flag. Let us wait peacefully for the Church to decide, one day, these questions which are beyond us. Instead, let us mobilize our forces to keep faith, hope and charity."

    (« Tant que le sédévacantisme reste au niveau du sentiment personnel ou de l’opinion privée, il n’a rien d’illicite, au vu des circonstances présentes. Mais il n’est pas prouvé. Il n’est qu’une hypothèse parmi d’autres, et pas la plus probable. Il est indu d’en faire un dogme et dangereux d’en faire un drapeau. Attendons paisiblement que l’Église tranche, un jour, ces questions qui nous dépassent. Et mobilisons plutôt nos forces pour garder la foi, l’espérance et la charité.»)

    This is in fact identical to the position of Archbishop Lefebvre.  They do not hold the legitimacy of the V2 popes to be dogmatic fact, given the present circuмstances, but they defer to the Church's judgment.

    Neither Archbishop Lefebvre, nor Bishop Williamson, nor these Dominicans hold a dogmatic R&R position as Johnson likes to pretend.

    This statement above does in fact encapsulate what I refer to as "sede-doubtism".

    Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    And if John can see no way to keep the Faith without believing that the See of Rome is vacant, I need urge upon him no more than that that belief is not obligatory.
    This quote was cited by a dogmatic R&Rer attacking Bishop Williamson for these comments, for tolerating sedevacantism.

    He also made this allegation against Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    He allows and supports priests to be sedevacantist; AND, lets them remove the popes name "non una cuм" in the mass on HIS altars (very grave).

    And here in this Eleison Comments, he refers to sedevacantists as sheep who are keeping the True Faith.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #10 on: July 13, 2021, 02:13:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 01:54:07 PM
    Dominicans of Avrille:

    This is in fact identical to the position of Archbishop Lefebvre.  They do not hold the legitimacy of the V2 popes to be dogmatic fact, given the present circuмstances, but they defer to the Church's judgment.

    Neither Archbishop Lefebvre, nor Bishop Williamson, nor these Dominicans hold a dogmatic R&R position as Johnson likes to pretend.

    This statement above does in fact encapsulate what I refer to as "sede-doubtism".

    Bishop Williamson:This quote was cited by a dogmatic R&Rer attacking Bishop Williamson for these comments, for tolerating sedevacantism.

    He also made this allegation against Bishop Williamson:
    And here in this Eleison Comments, he refers to sedevacantists as sheep who are keeping the True Faith.

    Ahh yes, more sifting of what is, and what is no longer, a dogmatic fact:

    The manuals all say the popes are dogmatic facts, but Lad says otherwise.

    But when it comes to canonizations, well, those are dogmatic facts!!!  Just look at the manuals!!!

    PS: Could you show me where Avrille, Lefebvre, or Williamson endorse your hand-wringing "dogmatic doubt" position?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #11 on: July 13, 2021, 02:16:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 01:54:07 PM
    This quote was cited by a dogmatic R&Rer attacking Bishop Williamson for these comments, for tolerating sedevacantism.

    He also made this allegation against Bishop Williamson:
    And here in this Eleison Comments, he refers to sedevacantists as sheep who are keeping the True Faith.
    Can you provide a link to these comments? 
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #12 on: July 13, 2021, 02:17:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2021, 01:54:07 PM
    Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    And if John can see no way to keep the Faith without believing that the See of Rome is vacant, I need urge upon him no more than that that belief is not obligatory.

    That's Eleison Comment CCCXLVIII (348), 15th March 2014

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-cccxlviii-(348)-15th-march-2014-a-d/msg369246/?topicseen#msg369246



    @SeanJohnson

    What exactly is the difference between a) and b)?

    a) "Holy See might be vacant."
    b) "it is not impossible that the Holy See is vacant."
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #13 on: July 13, 2021, 02:19:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on July 13, 2021, 02:17:16 PM


    That's Eleison Comment CCCXLVIII (348), 15th March 2014

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-cccxlviii-(348)-15th-march-2014-a-d/msg369246/?topicseen#msg369246



    @SeanJohnson

    What exactly is the difference between a) and b)?

    a) "Holy See might be vacant."
    b) "it is not impossible that the Holy See is vacant."

    The emphasis:

    The former implies there's a good posibility.

    The latter implies its very improbable.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Truth and Authority III
    « Reply #14 on: July 13, 2021, 02:25:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 13, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
    The emphasis:

    The former implies there's a good posibility.

    The latter implies its very improbable.

    Wouldn't a higher probability expressed by "may be vacant" rather than "might be vacant"?
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