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Author Topic: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?  (Read 4291 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2022, 10:36:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 17, 2022, 03:39:38 PM
    Yes, always infallible. The pope is not the Church nor the Church's magisterium.
    This is absolutely false. The magisterium and the Church as a whole exist par excellence in the person of the pope. The Church exists, in its fullness and its plenitude, in the person of the pope. You are absolutely wrong to say that the pope is not the Church's magisterium. In fact, the other members of the magisterium derive their authority only from the pope. Pope Pius IX said, "I am tradition. I am the Church." And he was absolutely correct. And it is true of every pope.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #46 on: September 18, 2022, 09:48:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 17, 2022, 01:53:32 PM
    We do know because he and + de Castro Mayer famously wrote their 'Open Letter' to JPII and informed him that if he went ahead with Apostasy at Assisi they 'would no longer be able to call him pope'.

    Where in that docuмent does it say that they 'would no longer be able to call him pope?'

    I can only see where it says....'you will no longer be the Good Shepherd.'  That's not necessarily the same thing. And for the remainder of his life, +ABL did refer to JP2 as Pope. 

    We know about +ABL's letters to the Pope. I was referring to his rhetoric. Because that's what the sedevacantists have - rhetoric, and it's mostly about how Francis, and all of the other Vll popes, aren't really popes. As if that is all that really matters. But that wasn't the main problem with +ABL. He was concerned about the situation of why the Modernists were doing what they were doing, and the problems that it caused. Like I said - the bigger picture.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #47 on: September 18, 2022, 10:21:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 18, 2022, 09:48:11 AM
    Where in that docuмent does it say that they 'would no longer be able to call him pope?'

    Like I said - the bigger picture.
    For the first statement, it sounds like you passed over my very next post?

    The bigger picture is the fact that the Universal Magersterium is infallible and that it's impossible for the Catholic Church to lead souls astray.  Vatican II is a different religion. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #48 on: September 18, 2022, 10:27:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 17, 2022, 10:36:39 PM
    This is absolutely false. The magisterium and the Church as a whole exist par excellence in the person of the pope. The Church exists, in its fullness and its plenitude, in the person of the pope. You are absolutely wrong to say that the pope is not the Church's magisterium. In fact, the other members of the magisterium derive their authority only from the pope. Pope Pius IX said, "I am tradition. I am the Church." And he was absolutely correct. And it is true of every pope.

    Popes have taught that the Church's magisterium is "unable to be mistaken,” has "immunity from error” and “could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching.”

    Should not common sense dictate that if what the popes taught above is true absolutely, and it is, then they cannot be talking about human beings at all, not even popes? It is by the errors of the V2 popes, that we know with certainty of faith that neither they or any of the popes are the Church's Magisterium.

    The Church's magisterium is "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX..... Now if you re-read my first paragraph and reference this paragraph, you should have a better understanding of what the Church's Magisterium is, why it has immunity from error, and above all why the magisterium is not the pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #49 on: September 18, 2022, 10:28:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on September 18, 2022, 10:21:32 AM
    For the first statement, it sounds like you passed over my very next post?

    The bigger picture is the fact that the Universal Magersterium is infallible and that it's impossible for the Catholic Church to lead souls astray.  Vatican II is a different religion.

    Sorry - my mistake. You didn't provide a link for the Assisi docuмent. I got them mixed up. Regarding Asissi - didn't JP2 go ahead with his horror at Assisi? And didn't +ABL still refer to him always as the Pope, despite the horrors at Assisi?

    I'm not going to get into the 'universal magisterium is infallible' argument, since +ABL did not focus on that, as far as I know, and Stubborn is far better at addressing that issue than I am. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #50 on: September 18, 2022, 02:36:08 PM »
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    • While that excerpt seems to sound sedevacantist, in the full context I don't think he is.

    Quote
    Abusing the vicarious power of Christ and placing oneself outside the succession by proposing heterodox doctrines, or by imposing norms that refer to them, makes this intrinsic link with Christ the Head and with His Mystical Body, the Church, disappear. In fact, the Pope’s vicarious power enjoys all the prerogatives of absolute, immediate, and direct authority over the Church only to the extent that it conforms to its main purpose, which is the salus animarum, always following in the wake of Tradition and fidelity to Our Lord.

    Furthermore, in the exercise of this authority, the Pope enjoys the special graces of state always within the very specific boundaries of this purpose; these graces have no effect where he acts against Christ and the Church. This is why Bergoglio’s furious attempts, however violent and destructive, are inexorably destined to break, and one day will certainly be declared null and void.
    Although at first he says that to propose heterodox doctrines would place one outside of the Church (implying that Bergoglio is outside of the Church and therefore not the Pope), he goes on to say that Bergoglio's destructive actions are only ineffective in that any destructive action of any pope would be ineffective, because the Pope's power only enjoys its prerogatives "to the extent that it confirms to its main purpose".

    To me, that's an indication that he still sees Francis as Pope to some extent. Nevertheless, he describes Francis' actions as destructive and ineffectual, and he derogatively refers to him as Bergoglio. To me, that indicates a pseudo-sedeprivationist belief: "Francis is the Pope, but he doesn't actually exercise papal authority".

    He's not a proper sedeprivationist though, because he seems to say that Francis isn't exercising papal authority just because he intends to use it for the wrong purposes, rather than having lost it (or never had it) entirely. I'm uncomfortable with this position because it leads to judging the Pope on each and every one of his acts and deciding whether or not they're Catholic enough. That seems to me to be a Protestant mindset--"I'm only obedient when my private judgement tells me I should be". That's not obedience at all, really.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #51 on: September 19, 2022, 08:24:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 18, 2022, 02:36:08 PM
    To me, that's an indication that he still sees Francis as Pope to some extent. Nevertheless, he describes Francis' actions as destructive and ineffectual, and he derogatively refers to him as Bergoglio. To me, that indicates a pseudo-sedeprivationist belief: "Francis is the Pope, but he doesn't actually exercise papal authority".

    I agree.  In the years I've been following him, I have never once seen him refer to Bergoglio as Francis (except one time, in a derogatory manner), much less Holy Father or His Holiness.  He has entertained the possibility of a Bennyvacantist scenario, but deferred to the Church to make the final determination.  So he would appear to have position similar to that of Archbishop Lebevre ... except that he is indeed far more rhetorically derogatory toward Bergoglio than +Lefebvre was toward his Conciliar predecessors.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #52 on: September 19, 2022, 09:49:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 19, 2022, 08:24:53 PM
    So he would appear to have position similar to that of Archbishop Lebevre ... except that he is indeed far more rhetorically derogatory toward Bergoglio than +Lefebvre was toward his Conciliar predecessors.

    Wait... I'm having a premonition!

    It's all coming together now... I can see it. 

    Pope Bergy is going to make Archbishop Vigano the next Bishop of the SSPX.

    Even Bp. Williamson has given it his blessing.

    The traditional Catholic movement will be saved!  :incense:
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #53 on: September 19, 2022, 11:30:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on September 19, 2022, 09:49:45 PM
    Wait... I'm having a premonition!

    It's all coming together now... I can see it. 

    Pope Bergy is going to make Archbishop Vigano the next Bishop of the SSPX.

    Even Bp. Williamson has given it his blessing.

    The traditional Catholic movement will be saved!  :incense:

    I know you're saying this tongue-in-cheek... but you might actually be on to something.

    I've had a pet theory for quite a while, that Francis's "long game", if indeed he has one, is to corral all TLM adherents under the aegis of the SSPX, with possibly the FSSP being urged to merge into them, to quarantine the traditionalist bacillus, if you will, and then in short order, get rid of all diocesan TLMs. 

    Add Vigano and Schneider as two more SSPX bishops --- Schneider is younger than Fellay or Galaretta either one, he's about my age --- and you have a phenomenon that is, to say the least, interesting.  Neither of those three is exactly eaten up with old age.  Not getting any younger, but neither are they octogenarians like Francis or Vigano.

    What happens after all TLM adherents (those who care to, anyway) get put into a kind of ecclesiastical containment area, well, that could go various ways.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #54 on: September 20, 2022, 12:03:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on September 19, 2022, 09:49:45 PM
    Wait... I'm having a premonition!

    It's all coming together now... I can see it. 

    Pope Bergy is going to make Archbishop Vigano the next Bishop of the SSPX.

    Even Bp. Williamson has given it his blessing.

    The traditional Catholic movement will be saved!  :incense:

    Hardly.  +Vigano has swung far to the right of the current Modernist-infested neo-SSPX. Putting him in charge of SSPX would set them back 10 years in terms of the absorption plan.  +Vigano says that V2 is unsalvageable and must be pitched, while +Fellay believes that it’s 95% Catholic and the rest can be interpreted according to Tradition.  +Vigano has strongly opposed the Plandemic, the abortion-tainted jab, the Great Reset, and globalism, while SSPX have been muted.  Rare is the SSPX criticism of Bergoglio, while +Vigano hasn’t stopped.  Your mind is warped against +Vigano for some unknown reason.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #55 on: September 20, 2022, 12:19:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 19, 2022, 11:30:15 PM
    I know you're saying this tongue-in-cheek... but you might actually be on to something.

    I've had a pet theory for quite a while, that Francis's "long game", if indeed he has one, is to corral all TLM adherents under the aegis of the SSPX, with possibly the FSSP being urged to merge into them, to quarantine the traditionalist bacillus, if you will, and then in short order, get rid of all diocesan TLMs.

    Add Vigano and Schneider as two more SSPX bishops --- Schneider is younger than Fellay or Galaretta either one, he's about my age --- and you have a phenomenon that is, to say the least, interesting.  Neither of those three is exactly eaten up with old age.  Not getting any younger, but neither are they octogenarians like Francis or Vigano.

    What happens after all TLM adherents (those who care to, anyway) get put into a kind of ecclesiastical containment area, well, that could go various ways.

    +Schneider is more of a possibility for that role, except why a need to replace +Fellay, who is probably of nearly identical mind as +Schneider?  Of the 4 consecrated by +Lefebvre, the most conservative is ousted and not getting any younger, while the second-most conservative, +Tissier, is out of commission, while +Galaretta has been a non-factor from day one.  Rome will probably allow SSPX to ordain the likes of a Father Paul Robinson ... and then it’s over for the “experiment of Tradition”.

    What’s interesting is that in the beginning, +Tissier had the reputation of being the most liberal, but +Fellay somehow left him in the dust. And I don’t think +Tissier has changed.  +Fellay has ... quite possibly compromised through Krah ... just as various politicians had been compromised by Epstein.  Among other things, +Fellay’s ardent protection of child rapists is inexplicable outside of some such nefarious “influence”.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #56 on: September 20, 2022, 11:05:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 20, 2022, 12:19:21 AM
    +Schneider is more of a possibility for that role, except why a need to replace +Fellay, who is probably of nearly identical mind as +Schneider?  Of the 4 consecrated by +Lefebvre, the most conservative is ousted and not getting any younger, while the second-most conservative, +Tissier, is out of commission, while +Galaretta has been a non-factor from day one.  Rome will probably allow SSPX to ordain the likes of a Father Paul Robinson ... and then it’s over for the “experiment of Tradition”.

    What’s interesting is that in the beginning, +Tissier had the reputation of being the most liberal, but +Fellay somehow left him in the dust. And I don’t think +Tissier has changed.  +Fellay has ... quite possibly compromised through Krah ... just as various politicians had been compromised by Epstein.  Among other things, +Fellay’s ardent protection of child rapists is inexplicable outside of some such nefarious “influence”.

    Ooh la la!  Is this a consensus among Americains, that Msgr. de Mallerais is the most liberal?  Frankly, I always thought of him as the most rigourous, but somewhat servile.  In Rivarol of 2012, he was every bit as strong against an accord as the Résistance, at a time when Msgr. de Galarreta seemed to suggest (at Villepreux) that it was practically impossible that Msgr. Fellay and the majority at the General Chapter could err in prudential matters in regard to an accord with Rome (a level of infallibility not even enjoyed by the pope).  Prior to that had said he was willing to head in a new direction so long as the rest of the Fraternity was united in doing so.  My perspective is that Msgr. de Mallerais is principled, but weak constitutionally, while Msgr. de Galarreta is weak in principle (the temporal good of the Fraternity seems to come before fidélité).  Certainly, I could be wrong.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is Msgr. Vigano Saying Here?
    « Reply #57 on: September 20, 2022, 11:10:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 20, 2022, 12:03:30 AM
    Hardly.  +Vigano has swung far to the right of the current Modernist-infested neo-SSPX. Putting him in charge of SSPX would set them back 10 years in terms of the absorption plan.  +Vigano says that V2 is unsalvageable and must be pitched, while +Fellay believes that it’s 95% Catholic and the rest can be interpreted according to Tradition.  +Vigano has strongly opposed the Plandemic, the abortion-tainted jab, the Great Reset, and globalism, while SSPX have been muted.  Rare is the SSPX criticism of Bergoglio, while +Vigano hasn’t stopped.  Your mind is warped against +Vigano for some unknown reason.
    I don't think this is what will happen with Vigano either; however, I could totally see Bergoglio or his successor making the SSPX the TLM Headquarters of the "Conciliar Church" once he gets rid of the ED communities and diocesan TLM's.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
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