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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 7922 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« Reply #150 on: December 01, 2022, 03:42:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 01, 2022, 03:03:14 PM
    If a supposed miracle can take place in the NO, it may be for the benefit of those Novus ordo attendees who need to know that the Real Presence truly exists - though most here would probably say that there is no Real Presence in a Novus Ordo Mass. But some of us would disagree. I think that it can be present, if it's valid Mass. But I don't want to get into a long discussion about the validity of the NO Mass. You will disagree, of course. That's okay.
    It is not a matter of the NOM being valid or not, to even phrase it that way confuses the matter imo. It is the consecration within the NOM that may or may not be valid, but the NOM itself is illicit i.e. illegal.

    The NOM was designed to replace the true Mass, not to worship God, which means any miracles should clearly point away from the evil thing. I find it somewhat perplexing that +Willimason does not at least acknowledge this.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #151 on: December 01, 2022, 03:44:19 PM »
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    • This fits the state of emergency conditions that pre -1983 Canon Law addresses.

    ArchBishop Thuc’s family and country were destroyed by Communists both in South Vietnam and in America.  

    And the homo Jєω-pope, Paul VI was a co-conspirator, running cover for the commies, while he was heading his hijacked schismatic newChurch.

    These unprecedented conditions broaden the application of Consecrations in Pecatore.

    As always, the Church will provide.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #152 on: December 01, 2022, 03:59:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 01, 2022, 03:40:19 PM
    That's just one definition of allegation.  I never implied that it was of wrongdoing.  Yes, this term is typically used in a legal context, but I meant it as simply making an unsubstantiated assertion.

    Thanks for clearing that up.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #153 on: December 01, 2022, 04:11:24 PM »
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    • People,

    I have no permission to release private group emails from that priest to the public.  I haven't yet hit 'panic' mode or been 'exposed' but at this point I'm moving on.  To the bashers who think I'm lying, c'est la vie.

    Cheers




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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #154 on: December 01, 2022, 05:10:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 01, 2022, 04:11:24 PM
    People,

    I have no permission to release private group emails from that priest to the public.  I haven't yet hit 'panic' mode or been 'exposed' but at this point I'm moving on.  To the bashers who think I'm lying, c'est la vie.

    Cheers

    Well, I for one didn't say that you're lying.  I was more about getting some details about why this happened recently when Bishop Williamson's views about the NOM have been known (and contested) for a couple yars now.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #155 on: December 01, 2022, 05:24:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 01, 2022, 05:10:16 PM
    Well, I for one didn't say that you're lying.  I was more about getting some details about why this happened recently when Bishop Williamson's views about the NOM have been known (and contested) for a couple yars now.
    I suspect that what is currently hidden will come to light in time.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #156 on: December 01, 2022, 05:43:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 01, 2022, 03:42:44 PM
    It is not a matter of the NOM being valid or not, to even phrase it that way confuses the matter imo. It is the consecration within the NOM that may or may not be valid, but the NOM itself is illicit i.e. illegal.

    The NOM was designed to replace the true Mass, not to worship God, which means any miracles should clearly point away from the evil thing. I find it somewhat perplexing that +Willimason does not at least acknowledge this.

    I know what illicit means. I'm not new to this subject. My opinion is just different from yours. Illicit does not mean invalid. The SSPX used to maintain that the Novus Ordo is valid but illicit. They don't really talk much about that anymore. They also used to say that attending the NO Mass is only sinful for those who are aware of its deficits. Sound familiar?

    +W views it as +ABL viewed it, if you refer to my post earlier today where I outlined +ABL's words on the subject, based on the study of Sean Johnson on the subject. +W is merely saying what +ABL said. +W is a successor to +ABL. Therefore, he has a right and some might say a duty to reflect the views of +ABL, where he can do so. Those who do not care for +ABL's thought on the matter, whether they be sedevacantists or otherwise may disagree. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #157 on: December 01, 2022, 06:45:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 01, 2022, 03:42:44 PM
    The NOM was designed to replace the true Mass, not to worship God, which means any miracles should clearly point away from the evil thing. I find it somewhat perplexing that +Willimason does not at least acknowledge this.

    Agreed.  If a true, legitimate authority promulgated a valid mass which produces miracles, then what is the point of attending illegal chapels unrecognized by the Catholic Church, to get sacraments from a Society whose founder is still officially excommunicated?  I guess I'd ask, in the vulgar parlance, what the Hell are we doing here? 
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    Offline rosarytrad

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    • St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #158 on: December 01, 2022, 07:20:45 PM »
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    • "[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption."

    [1 Corinthians 15:50]
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    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #159 on: December 01, 2022, 09:19:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 01, 2022, 05:43:32 PM
    I know what illicit means. I'm not new to this subject. My opinion is just different from yours. Illicit does not mean invalid. The SSPX used to maintain that the Novus Ordo is valid but illicit. They don't really talk much about that anymore. They also used to say that attending the NO Mass is only sinful for those who are aware of its deficits. Sound familiar?
    Yes Meg, it sounds all too familiar, and wrong because that idea is altogether absurd. It's ridiculous. There is no possibility of making it make any sense.

    For the sake of brevity, it is sufficient to say that the NO "mass" is evil. Within that evil "mass" is the NO consecration. It is that NO consecration (not the NO "mass") which may or may not be valid. It is the NO "mass" that was perpetrated to replace the True Mass, not to worship God, so whatever my opinion and your opinion is is irrelevant, because evil is evil even when the evil is "reverent."


    Quote from: Meg on December 01, 2022, 05:43:32 PM
    +W views it as +ABL viewed it, if you refer to my post earlier today where I outlined +ABL's words on the subject, based on the study of Sean Johnson on the subject. +W is merely saying what +ABL said. +W is a successor to +ABL. Therefore, he has a right and some might say a duty to reflect the views of +ABL, where he can do so. Those who do not care for +ABL's thought on the matter, whether they be sedevacantists or otherwise may disagree.
    Yes, I saw your post what +ABL was quoted as saying, which by any measure is ridiculous no matter who said it. Not sure how he and +Williamson

    Whether the NO consecration is valid or invalid, the NO "mass" is still a diabolical evil, this means that one attends an evil service whether or not one is aware that it is evil. There should be no confusion whatsoever here because it is what it is. That the NO "mass" is evil is indisputable because of what it is and has done to the faith of billions since it was perpetrated, and not dependent upon one's idea of what is evil.  

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #160 on: December 02, 2022, 10:55:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 01, 2022, 06:45:14 PM
    “…what the Hell are we doing here?”

    🙄

    Duh… I forget?

    Why did they kick us out of their newChurch ѕуηαgσgυєs?

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #161 on: December 02, 2022, 01:38:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on December 02, 2022, 10:55:37 AM
    🙄

    Duh… I forget?

    Why did they kick us out of their newChurch ѕуηαgσgυєs?

    Who kicked you out?  You can go anywhere you like.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #162 on: December 02, 2022, 04:33:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 02, 2022, 01:38:53 PM
    Who kicked you out?  You can go anywhere you like.

    Depending on the NOM venue, TLM Catholics are unwelcome.

    In fact, not long ago, the Director of Louisville’s Archdiocese Cemeteries told trads, they could not hold an “all souls”public Rosary inside the Cemetery grounds because we were not Catholic.

    If you show dissent with their programs, you are escorted out the door.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #163 on: December 02, 2022, 06:49:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on December 02, 2022, 04:33:13 PM
    Depending on the NOM venue, TLM Catholics are unwelcome.

    In fact, not long ago, the Director of Louisville’s Archdiocese Cemeteries told trads, they could not hold an “all souls”public Rosary inside the Cemetery grounds because we were not Catholic.

    If you show dissent with their programs, you are escorted out the door.

    C'est la vie...  How can a Mass enforced by a legitimate authority, which produces miracles, lead anyone to Hell?  If the Mass is a Catholic one, and the faithful can attend it, the faithful should attend it.  There is really no need to obtain Sacraments from illegal chapels not recognized by the local ordinary.  What are trads actually doing?
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #164 on: December 03, 2022, 11:58:27 AM »
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    • Quote
    1b But how can God possibly work with and through a text of Mass essentially offensive to Him?
    Because even Mass is not the final end, but only a means, albeit a mighty means, to the final end of souls dying with true faith in God so as to achieve salvation, help populate Heaven, and thereby give glory to God. If souls have no Mass to attend, can they keep the faith? Yes. If they have no faith, will they attend Mass? No. Therefore the Mass relates to the faith as means to end, and not as end to means. Therefore the New Mass is only a means, and if it is a mixture of good and bad in which its villainous fabricators had to keep enough good in order to deceive Catholics into accepting it when it was introduced in 1969, for instance enough good for possible validity, then God is easily great enough to work around the bad if He has a good reason to do so. To this day, does He have such a reason? Yes.
    All human souls that ever lived are the sheep of God, and His personal creation (Ps. 94, 7), He wants all of them to be saved (I Tim. II, 4), and not just the Catholics (or the Traditional Catholics). The Sacred Heart knows from eternity just how many of His sheep were deceived at Vatican II by their shepherds, how many were more sinned against than sinning, and He knows today how many good believing souls, how many believing priests and even bishops there still are, and who they are, and He reaches through to them in the diabolical mixture of the Novus Ordo, working around the bad and with what is still good, towards the salvation of their souls. And as for those who love the Newchurch and want its bad Mass, they have been reminded and warned by the miracles that they are choosing to go to Hell. If one starts out from the Heart of God, these Novus Ordo miracles make perfect sense . . .
    Kyrie eleison
    Focusing now on part 1b of +Williamson's latest Kyrie Eleison.  Does anyone volunteer to enlighten my understanding on this section.  I refer particularly to the last part in bold letters.  How do the Eucharistic miracles warn lovers of the new Mass that they are going to Hell?  Is the answer obvious, and is only my cognitive decline the reason I don't understand?

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