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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 11842 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« Reply #120 on: November 30, 2022, 03:27:28 PM »
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  • Meg, just when I thought you just might (just quite possibly) be showing some semblance of understanding the traditional landscape, you come out with this. You are a pathetic case indeed. :facepalm:

    I don't mind being thought of as pathetic by a sedevacantist. Not a problem. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #121 on: November 30, 2022, 08:49:44 PM »
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  • :(
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.


    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #122 on: November 30, 2022, 09:46:38 PM »
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  • I agree. It was only said at all to illustrate the faulty logic of the comment I replied to.
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #123 on: November 30, 2022, 09:54:02 PM »
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  • That shouldn’t be ever written especially by a Catholic!
    You're right. My comment was not intended to disparage Our Mother. I apologize to everyone for this. I'm going to own this as a mistake on my part...
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #124 on: November 30, 2022, 10:15:28 PM »
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  • I reported my comment to the moderator to remove it. Honestly embarrassed to have posted this. A wiser man would’ve done different.
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #125 on: November 30, 2022, 10:18:38 PM »
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  • Ok, I removed the post. 

    And guys -- don't QUOTE posts you don't like, or posts with such problematic content. It multiplies how much moderating work I have to do. AND I MIGHT HAVE MISSED IT IF I WASN'T CAREFUL.

    No one's going to report each of the posts that quotes offensive material. I might have moderated the offending post (ONLY) if I had been in a hurry... 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #126 on: December 01, 2022, 08:34:12 AM »
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  • Looks like the 'thumbs down' army is out in farce, er, I mean force. 

    People, I've invited you, and now invite you again, to get off your couch, roll up your sleeves, and do some research.

    You're the one who's making an allegation, and it would be simple enough for you to name names and to post the details.  Nor are we talking about detraction since these are matters of the external forum.

    This reminds me of that one guy who kept making some vague insinuations about a certain SV bishop about whom he had some secret knowledge that his consecration was invalid.  That's something that not only could he have publicly come out with but was required to do so for the public good.  If I were present at an episcopal consecration and knew that the form had been botched, I would be under obligation to call this out and to bring out the facts.  But he was just playing that game in order to cast doubt on the entire +Thuc line, because he had an agenda.

    So if you know something, just name the names and provide the details.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #127 on: December 01, 2022, 08:38:08 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's views about the NOM have been out there for, what?, about 2 years now, since that one question from the lady about whether she could attend the NOM.

    Recently, Bishop Williamson reiterated and perhaps amplified the comments by asserting that since the NOM is valid, and can "provide nourishment," Our Lady could not completely condemn it.  That's bleeding over from validity to whether it's acceptable, so it did take that logic a step further.  So my question is whether these recent statement triggered an additional defection from alignment with Bishop Williamson.  But we've had Father Pfeiffer and Father Hewko disagreeing with the earlier comments for a couple years now, and the former in particular used them to attack Bishop Williamson.


    Offline Charity

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #128 on: December 01, 2022, 09:28:28 AM »
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  • Basic Catholic moral theology: evil means can never justify a good end.

    Thus, NOM (evil means) can never justify the good end of transubstantiation which Bp. W believes can and does take place at some but not all times in the context of NOM.

    I know of no where that Bp. W has ever said that NOM justifies any good end.  What he has indicated, however, is that NOM can sometimes bring about a good end and that some people may benefit from that good end.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #129 on: December 01, 2022, 09:45:29 AM »
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  • I had forgotten that I ordered Sean Johnson's 37 page booklet called, "A Catechetical Refutation: Regarding Certain Objections Made to Bishop Williamson's Comments on the Novus Ordo Missae" published by Hugh Akins. I ordered it at the same time as ordering Fr. Chazal's "Eternal Hell."

    It is possible that +W has taken his views a step further, but maybe not further than reason dictates. In any case, here is a quote from Archbishop Lefebvre regarding taking the pastoral approach to attendance at the New Mass.

    This is from page 3:

    Quote
    "It wasn't until April 8, that Br. Raymond de Pennefort, T.O.P., posted a quote of Archbishop Lefebvre taken from a recording of a spiritual conference in 1979, which fully vindicated and corroborated the pastoral approach taken by Bp. Williamson on June 28:

    [+ABL:]  "I still have some considerations to make about precisely what the judgment is that we should make regarding those who say this New Mass and those who attend the New Mass. Is there not also a need to have a reasonable judgment which corresponds to the pastoral care that we must have regarding the souls who still do not realize the error that they could be committing?

    "It is not just the fact of the attendance or the celebration of the New Mass. It's true that in many cases where the fault is objectively grave and subjectively it is not because ultimately the conditions of a grave moral culpability do not exist; it is necessary that there is serious matter, knowledge, and full consent. We admit that there is serious matter (material grave) and that there is full consent. But if there is no knowledge of the seriousness of the sin, then the person is not aware of the grave matter. They do not commit a subjective sin.

    "They commit an objective sin, but not a subjective sin. I think that people who are accustomed to utter profanities or repeat blasphemies without realizing that it is blasphemy do not know it. They repeat what they hear in their environment, vulgar things to which is associated the name of God, and they are not aware of it - well, one can point it out. They can understand it, but then they could be committing an objectively serious offense but subjectively not be guilty.

    "Therefore you should not judge all people. You must know how to examine each case. It's precisely the role of a confessor, because he must examine, he must be informed.....sometimes in certain cases, we might think that it is not always very pastoral to point it out to certain people....if, for example, we are aware that these people, if we point out the error that they are committing, these people will continue to do it [attend the New Mass - translator]....it is sometimes necessary to proceed prudently in order to open their eyes to tell them what to do and not always be harsh in the way we act regarding souls. Souls are delicate objects that we cannot mistreat. When we say, "you commit a grave sin," "you will go to hell," etc., we take a chance of doing more damage to a soul by mistreating it then by making it understand things gently. Rather than making one understand, explain it to them, open their eyes about the error being committed. It is a pastoral question, I would say, but it is necessary to be a shepherd to these people as well as not condemn them immediately." [End Quote]
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #130 on: December 01, 2022, 11:02:04 AM »
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  • Would not the miraculous bringing forth of a human life arising out of a rape (evil in and of itself) be in some way similar to the miraculous act of transubstantiation that takes place in the Sacrament of the Eucharist incorporated into the Novus Ordo Mass if the necessary elements of that Sacrament are present? 

    I do not claim that all that I have stated above is a 100% correct statement of truth. I think it is, but I don't claim it to be with anything approaching absolute certainty.  Rather  I put it forth for the purpose of good faith discussion.
    Bolding and underline in quote are mine.

    This analogy reminds me of the heresy of Adoptionism.

    Charity, I see your point... but we have to consider WHO we are talking about when we speak of The Holy Eucharist. We're talking about God Incarnate who was conceived of The Holy Ghost and born of The Virgin Mary.

     I believe Novus Ordo "miracles" are demonic and false. No other way to view it in my mind.

    To all: I say this ONLY to describe the seriousness of what we're discussing here and I'm posting it as a rebuttal in this good faith discussion.

    I love Our Mother very much and would never purposely write something to make her look bad. I hope my comment is understood and considered as intended. The phrasing I used in my original comment was immodest and imprudent. I hope this comment makes my point clear without having to explicitly state what I'm insinuating. Maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot again, but I think I make a valid point here.

    Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us.
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #131 on: December 01, 2022, 11:06:34 AM »
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  • I believe Novus Ordo "miracles" are demonic and false. No other way to view it in my mind.
    I believe the same. Pre V2, this the how we were supposed to believe, no? - Unless or until approved by the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #132 on: December 01, 2022, 12:11:32 PM »
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  • I believe the same. Pre V2, this the how we were supposed to believe, no? - Unless or until approved by the Church.

    Yes, that's always been the Church's attitude, and the attitude of the faithful ... presumed false until proven otherwise.

    Bishop Williamson seems to think that if it's preternatural that it's undoubtedly authentic.  Garabandal for instance was clearly preternatural.

    But what of the consideration that it could be diabolical?  IMO, that's clearly the case with Garabandal.

    I've speculated before about why the devil would try to pull Garabandal, and generally landed on the notion that it was a distraction from the Third Secret needing to be revealed.  But then the Dimond Brothers made a very astute observations.  Garabandal and Akita both focus on a PHYSICAL chastisement, making people think that the chastisement is "yet to come" as a physical chastisement.  While there's no doubt that that will be coming ALSO, it's clear that the Third Secret was about the (worse) SPIRITUAL chastisement of Vatican II and the NOM.  Cardinal Ciappi, who read it, said it had to do with an apostasy beginning "at the top".  Sister Lucy said it should be revealed around 1960 because "it would be much clearer then".  Sister Lucy got almost physically ill when attempting to write out the Third Secret.  There was something terrible in there that goes beyond a physical chastisement and goes beyond even their vision of Hell.  And she was ordered to write it down under obedience, so it wasn't hesitation on those grounds either.  There's something unthinkable in the Third Secret, something that has precious little to do with the failed assassination attempt on Wojtyla or even -- and this is Wojtyla's misdirection -- entire nations being swallowed up by the oceans.  Of course, that means Wojtyla was caught in a lie, since the Third Secret he "released" made no mention of any such thing.  So either he was lying when he said that earlier or lying in terms of what was released ... or, IMO, both.

    So that's a plausible reason for why the devil would pull off Garabandal or Akita ... with no mention of the apostasy beginning at the top, and a token mention of "bishop vs. bishop", which too was intended to disguise the fact that this isn't in-fighting among liberal vs. conservative bishops, but that the entire Conciliar institution eclipses the Catholic Church and is an imposter anti-Church.

    Similarly, with the NOM "Eucharistic miracles," the intent could clearly be for the devil to have people second-guess their opposition to the NOM and/or their believe that it's of doubtful validity.  Well, if God worked a miracle through it, it must be valid and it can't be "all that bad", right?  Alas, that's precisely the conclusion Bishop Williamson drew from it.  So the trick worked.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #133 on: December 01, 2022, 12:20:22 PM »
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  • But with Bishop Williamson's glomming onto all these private revelations, why never a mention of Julie Marie Jahenny ... who IMO is actually quite credible?  Why no mention of Emmerich, with her visions of a false Church and a false pope, with the true Church being driven out into the wilderness?

    Julie Marie Jahenny reports that Our Lord predicted beforehand that the enemies who are not of His Gospel, the ones who crucified Him, (aka Jews), were planning to introduce a Rite of Mass that's "odious in His sight" and that contains "words from the abyss" (undoubtedly a reference to the substitution of the Catholic Offertory with a "blessing" from the тαℓмυd ... from these self-same ones who crucified Him).



    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #134 on: December 01, 2022, 12:43:07 PM »
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  • But with Bishop Williamson's glomming onto all these private revelations, why never a mention of Julie Marie Jahenny ... who IMO is actually quite credible?  Why no mention of Emmerich, with her visions of a false Church and a false pope, with the true Church being driven out into the wilderness?

    A few weeks ago, I started a thread about Cardinals being appointed "in pectore" (i.e., in secret).  I asked whether this would also be permissible -in today's crisis- for the consecration of bishops.  It didn't get much traction (though I believe M. Ladislaus did respond citing secret consecrations in necessity in other contexts (e.g., behind the Iron Curtain).  The reason I was wondering about this was because I know some sedevacantistes have posited that, despite the death of the last Bishops consecrated by Pius XII, perhaps there were secret bishops consecrated (i.e., the "lone bishop in the woods") in pectore, and actually given office?

    For example, and I have nobody in mind, but were Pius XII to have consecrated someone in pectore behind the Iron Curtain, then later that bishop rejected Vatican II and himself consecrated other successors in pectore, and imparted office to them, then the "lone bishop in the woods" theory is not as absurd as its made out to be.

    The grand question is: Can office be transmitted in pectore by another bishop, Rome being unadvised?
    Noblesse oblige.