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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 7893 times)

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Online MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2022, 11:19:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 28, 2022, 10:33:54 AM
    Because I dared to disagree with the rape analogy?

    To me it seemed he was stating rape is intrinsically evil which has the potential to produce some good, but the Mass is intrinsically good and cannot produce evil.  As comparing them with any kind of equal footing is impossible, I took him to be stating a fact and not offering an analogy of similarities.

    Anyhoo, not here to start a keyboard war so I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #16 on: November 28, 2022, 06:44:05 PM »
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    • Bishop Williamson blew through 2 stops signs, the nuts and bolts of the issue which must be obeyed: "Quo Primum" and Sacramental form and matter.

    Quo Primum is the law governing the Latin Mass, and says that It is the ONLY Mass in the Roman Rite, in perpetuity - like, FOREVER!  Then, now and until the end of time.

    Sacramental form and matter was taught to us in grade school (at a time before the Changes, with nuns still dressed in habits), who absolutely taught the form and matter to us of each sacrament.  They firmly asserted that if either, or both, of the form and matter was not exactly as required by the Church for each Sacrament, if it was altered or changed at all, then the Sacrament did not happen - it did not take place!  We were taught this so that we were not "bamboozled" at any time with wondering if we were dealing with real Sacraments or not when practicing the Faith. 

    In this case, for sure, the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is altered at the Consecration of the Wine - "for many" being changed to "for all" - something Our Lord did not say nor mean.  The Destroyers did not blush to alter Holy Scripture to something Jesus never said! 

    The Mass and the Sacraments are protected by these laws.  If they are broken, the result is sacrilege - an attack against the Divinity Itself.  That's all it takes for them to be off-limits -- whether confected or not is another argument. 

    Some "good shepherd."  Go on, Bishop Williamson - keep saying it's ok to go to this illegal, sacrilegious Mass, despite what the Church has commanded. 

    Go argue the point to Christ - one day you will have to.      
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    Offline cletus1805

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #17 on: November 28, 2022, 10:46:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Merry on November 28, 2022, 06:44:05 PM
    Some "good shepherd."  Go on, Bishop Williamson - keep saying it's ok to go to this illegal, sacrilegious Mass, despite what the Church has commanded.
    This is not what he wrote.

    Quote
    And as for those who love the Newchurch and want its bad Mass, they have been reminded and warned by the miracles that they are choosing to go to Hell.

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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #18 on: November 29, 2022, 12:20:34 AM »
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    • Bishop Williamson has never made short shrift of the New Mass, and even in the past has indicated people could attend it under certain circuмstances, etc. - which is not what the Church requires under the laws and theology affecting the Holy Mass and Sacraments.  He himself seemingly continues to be more affected by phenomena, or rumors of it, than he should be.        
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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #19 on: November 29, 2022, 12:34:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Merry on November 28, 2022, 06:44:05 PM
    In this case, for sure, the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is altered at the Consecration of the Wine - "for many" being changed to "for all" - something Our Lord did not say nor mean.  The Destroyers did not blush to alter Holy Scripture to something Jesus never said!

    They changed it back about 12-13 years ago to "for many".  You gotta keep up, man.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #20 on: November 29, 2022, 07:49:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2022, 12:34:34 AM
    They changed it back about 12-13 years ago to "for many".  You gotta keep up, man.


    So Lads, you believe the Novus ordo rabble followed Benedict XVI’s teachings,  even his footnotes on the change back to the Consecration words, 
    “…for many…” ?

    It would be an interesting poll to see the percentage of newChurch presbyters that are using the words, “… for many…” in the Consecration. ?

    Perhaps as many as are following B16’s Latin Mass motu in 2022.  😉

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #21 on: November 29, 2022, 08:00:01 AM »
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    • Does Bishop Williamson believe that the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Schismatics is a means of salvation?  It is a valid sacrament.
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    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #22 on: November 29, 2022, 09:47:09 AM »
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    • Strange statements that miracles in an officially promulgated mass can lead you to Hell.

    I'm on the email chain of a certain Resistance priest who sent out a long email yesterday regarding the many complaints over +Williamson's statements.  Several groups apparently stated they were cutting themselves off from Father as he's 'in' with +Williamson and they don't want to be associated with it.  

    Hey, who said the Great Apostasy would be easy?

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    Offline Charity

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #23 on: November 29, 2022, 06:40:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2022, 12:34:34 AM
    They changed it back about 12-13 years ago to "for many". 

    https://lms.org.uk/missals

    New and Traditional side-by-side

    A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TEXTS OF THE TRADITIONAL MISSAL AND THE NEW MISSAL OF 2011.
    FOR THIS IS MY BODY.
    ************
    FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

    *****************************
    *****************************

    FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING TESTAMENT, THE MYSTERY OF FAITH, WHICH FOR YOU AND FOR MANY SHALL BE SHED UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.
    P: As often as ye shall do these things, ye shall do them in memory of Me.
    **************

    TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT, FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT, WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME
    [The priest adores and elevates the Chalice. The bell is rung. He then continues:]
    [The bell is rung the priest shows the chalice to the people, places it on the corporal, and genuflects in adoration].
    P: The mystery of faith.

    **************************************************************************************************************
    The following is taken verbatim from the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:

    "Q. What is the matter of the sacrament of the Eucharist?
    A. The matter of the sacrament of the Eucharist is that which was used by Jesus Christ Himself, that is, wheaten bread and wine of the vine."

    "Q. What is the form of the sacrament of the Eucharist?
    A. The form of the sacrament of the Eucharist consists of the words used by Jesus Christ Himself 'This is My Body: This is My Blood.'"

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________

    If a valid priest offers the Novus Ordo Mass with the Church's proper intention while utilizing the correct matter and form of the sacrament of the Eucharist incorporated therein does the miracle of transubstantiation take place and if it does not why does it not?

     Regardless of the answer, I absolutely do not condone attendance at the Novus Ordo Mass for reasons stated in my earlier post.  At the same time I do not judge the interior forum of any particular individual who does attend the Novus Ordo Mass, that being a matter for God Almighty. cf. Matt. 7:1-3




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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #24 on: November 29, 2022, 11:26:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on November 29, 2022, 07:49:22 AM

    So Lads, you believe the Novus ordo rabble followed Benedict XVI’s teachings,  even his footnotes on the change back to the Consecration words,
    “…for many…” ?

    It would be an interesting poll to see the percentage of newChurch presbyters that are using the words, “… for many…” in the Consecration. ?

    Perhaps as many as are following B16’s Latin Mass motu in 2022.  😉

    More stupidity from one of the resident CI halfwits.  This is not a question of what I "believe", as these word were changed back in the official English NOM books and Missals and missalettes.  You on the other hand throw bullshit speculation out there as fact, implying that most NO priests comply, as if it were fact.

    We need a subforum that requires passing IQ and reading comprehension tests (above a 4th grade proficienty) before permitting people to post there, eliminating about 25% of the membership here at least.

    I'm this close to getting out of here because I can't suffer the idiots, shills, and bad-wille slanderers on this forum anymore ... maybe I'll start my own forum / blog that has at least some minimal requirements with regard to intellectual capacity or at least sincerity and intellectual honesty.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #25 on: November 30, 2022, 12:24:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 28, 2022, 07:38:07 AM
    However, the (Holy) Mass is supposed to be from Christ's Holy Church. It can't be evil at all. God should not have to bring good from it. 

    False Christs, false prophets and all....

    Isn't transubstantiation the true miracle -- Eucharistic Miracles are no more or less supernatural than what takes place at every valid Mass. And the grace that comes along with the Mass and the Holy Eucharist is 100% supernatural.

    But you should have seen the wicked priests and bishops who lived before the Protestant Revolt. I wasn't there, but I have a good imagination and I've read my history books. Let's just say the Protestants DID have something to go on, a grain of truth, something that resonated with the disaffected Faithful -- that the Church WAS in a horrible, sorry state. Widespread ignorance, avarice, doctrinal error, moral depravity (including concubinage) and so forth. Priests were slaves to all 7 of the capital sins; guilty of mortal sins against all 10 of the Commandments (some more common than others).

    Many purist Trads, if they found ourselves in such circuмstances, would be revolted, wash our hands of the whole thing, and would become home-aloners -- or even Protestants, once an eloquent heresiarch appeared in our village and started out by decrying the abuses -- speaking the truth. Just look at Pfeifferville. Those people went off the deep end, joining a cult, because their leader has a foundation of truth to go off -- and the people just go along for the ride. They come for the condemnation of the various neo-SSPX evils (GOOD!) and stay for the cult (BAD!) Just like poor Catholics in the 1500's came for the condemnation of clerical vices (GOOD!) and stayed for the heresy (BAD!)
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #26 on: November 30, 2022, 12:34:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 29, 2022, 09:47:09 AM
    Several groups apparently stated they were cutting themselves off from Father as he's 'in' with +Williamson and they don't want to be associated with it. 

    Hey, who said the Great Apostasy would be easy?

    Yeah, those "several groups" are falling victim to the Great Apostasy with such foolishness.

    I absolutely can't stand such senseless division and giving up of the practice of the Faith -- the formal practice of religion, attendance at Mass -- for such nonsense reasons.

    "Bishop so-and-so said something I disagree with, so I am not going to attend any Masses. Not just by him, mind you, but by any priest he's on good terms with."

    Or even worse, to use such BS reasons to justify leaving the "frying pan" (as they see it) and then proceed to jump into the red-hot burning coals below -- going to the neo-SSPX, Indult, or Novus Ordo. Or a cult like Pfeifferville. It's almost as though they wanted those easier, more socially acceptable, and/or convenient options to begin with, but needed an excuse to give up the fight. Even a lame excuse would do, for these people.

    I think such turncoats and compromisers are doomed, especially given where the world is headed. But I think the worst fate awaits the dogmatic Home Aloners, who leave every priest because NONE OF THEM IS PERFECT OR SAINTLY ENOUGH FOR THEM -- THEY CAN'T FIND ONE WHO AGREES WITH THEM 100% ON EVERY SINGLE POINT TOUCHING ON THE CRISIS IN THE CHURCH.

    Nevermind if that priest actually makes all his opinions required dogmas that you must assent to -- that would be a different story. Even if the priest/bishop just has opinions that he treats as opinions, that he is 100% OK if people disagree with him about. No, these morons think that somehow his Masses are invalid or displeasing to God, because they believe some bizarre, made-up doctrine like "When attending a Mass, one must fully agree with a priest on 100% of things (including which sports team is better) or you're committing some sort of sin."

    It borders on heresy.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #27 on: November 30, 2022, 07:21:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 30, 2022, 12:24:01 AM
    Isn't transubstantiation the true miracle -- Eucharistic Miracles are no more or less supernatural than what takes place at every valid Mass. And the grace that comes along with the Mass and the Holy Eucharist is 100% supernatural.

    But you should have seen the wicked priests and bishops who lived before the Protestant Revolt. I wasn't there, but I have a good imagination and I've read my history books. Let's just say the Protestants DID have something to go on, a grain of truth, something that resonated with the disaffected Faithful -- that the Church WAS in a horrible, sorry state. Widespread ignorance, avarice, doctrinal error, moral depravity (including concubinage) and so forth. Priests were slaves to all 7 of the capital sins; guilty of mortal sins against all 10 of the Commandments (some more common than others).

    Many purist Trads, if they found ourselves in such circuмstances, would be revolted, wash our hands of the whole thing, and would become home-aloners -- or even Protestants, once an eloquent heresiarch appeared in our village and started out by decrying the abuses -- speaking the truth. Just look at Pfeifferville. Those people went off the deep end, joining a cult, because their leader has a foundation of truth to go off -- and the people just go along for the ride. They come for the condemnation of the various neo-SSPX evils (GOOD!) and stay for the cult (BAD!) Just like poor Catholics in the 1500's came for the condemnation of clerical vices (GOOD!) and stayed for the heresy (BAD!)
    So, if the New Mass is 100% valid, confects the Body of Our Lord, offers true Eucharistic miracles, provides supernatural grace why aren't you assisting there? 

    I know it's not terribly welcome here, but I think Bishop Williamson's position on the new "mass" is dangerous.  And there are quite a few other posters here who seem to be saying the same thing.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #28 on: November 30, 2022, 09:04:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 30, 2022, 07:21:03 AM
    So, if the New Mass is 100% valid, confects the Body of Our Lord, offers true Eucharistic miracles, provides supernatural grace why aren't you assisting there?

    I know it's not terribly welcome here, but I think Bishop Williamson's position on the new "mass" is dangerous.  And there are quite a few other posters here who seem to be saying the same thing.

    I agree with you totally. If the new “mass” is valid and it’s been produced by the Church, then it MUST be good and holy and you should have no objection to it. To claim that it is in anyway imperfect, is error (of course this assumes that it in fact comes from the True Church). None of the Church’s sacraments are or can be, in anyway, imperfect. But we know that the NO is imperfect in many ways including; In it’s development, in it’s lack of a true Offertory, in it’s dubious “consecration”, etc.

    What is truly sad is the fact the the NO “mass” was the NUMBER ONE reason why people fled the NO churches and became traditionalists. It wasn’t VII that tipped off most people, it was the NO. Now we are supposed to believe that it’s not only valid, but it can even be the source of miracles???!!! That is unbelievably sickening!

    Unfortunately the good Bishop’s reasoning is way off the mark. He wants his cake and eat it too. Sorry, but he can’t have it both ways, it just doesn’t work that way. You are absolutely right Vermont, his position is EXTREMELY dangerous and should not be followed.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #29 on: November 30, 2022, 09:17:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 29, 2022, 11:26:00 PM
    More stupidity from one of the resident CI halfwits.  This is not a question of what I "believe", as these word were changed back in the official English NOM books and Missals and missalettes.  You on the other hand throw bullshit speculation out there as fact, implying that most NO priests comply, as if it were fact.

    We need a subforum that requires passing IQ and reading comprehension tests (above a 4th grade proficienty) before permitting people to post there, eliminating about 25% of the membership here at least.

    I'm this close to getting out of here because I can't suffer the idiots, shills, and bad-wille slanderers on this forum anymore ... maybe I'll start my own forum / blog that has at least some minimal requirements with regard to intellectual capacity or at least sincerity and intellectual honesty.

    Cool down Lad, he just took it the wrong way. Just because you excel in intelligence, it’s not presumed that you excel in humility. 😉 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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