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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 7900 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« on: November 27, 2022, 05:33:22 PM »
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  • DCCCII #802
    November 26, 2022
    QUESTIONS ENSUING – I
    The Sacred Heart of Jesus wants to save.
    He wades through mud to rescue an erring knave.

    In the last four issues of these “Comments,” they have taken a position on many vexed questions in the present crisis of the Catholic Church with which a number of readers may not agree, and they are absolutely entitled to disagree, unless and until Church Authority comes back to its senses and settles any of these problems once and for all. In the meantime, however, on a first question constantly arising, let these “Comments” offer some considerations. This question and its follow-up are in heavy black to correspond to the force with which some readers might express them! –
    1 If it is true, as you claim, that Almighty God has accompanied Eucharistic miracles, wrought within the Novus Ordo Mass, with ample proof of their authenticity, then why should believing Catholics not simply go back to attending the New Mass, and save themselves a lot of bother?
    Because the New Mass is the central act of worship of the new and false man-centred religion which came out of Vatican II. The text of this Mass, fixed on paper, is objectively offensive to God because it is likewise centred on man, not on God, and by being regularly attended it will normally undermine a person’s Catholic faith, for instance in the Real Presence, in the Sacrifice of the Mass, in the Holy Orders of a Catholic priest, and so on. Regular attendance can turn a Catholic into a Protestant without his even realising it. However, by the diabolical cunning of the fabricators of this text of the New Mass, it keeps enough elements of the true Mass for it to be able to be celebrated validly, so that any particular celebration of it is not necessarily invalid as a Mass, even if it is celebrated invalidly more and more.
    Therefore one can say of the New Mass neither that it is valid and can therefore be attended, nor that it cannot be attended, therefore it is invalid. The truth is, as often, neither all white nor all black. One must say that the New Mass can still be celebrated validly, but it may not therefore be attended, because regular attendance has contributed hugely to millions of Catholics losing their faith.
    1b But how can God possibly work with and through a text of Mass essentially offensive to Him?
    Because even Mass is not the final end, but only a means, albeit a mighty means, to the final end of souls dying with true faith in God so as to achieve salvation, help populate Heaven, and thereby give glory to God. If souls have no Mass to attend, can they keep the faith? Yes. If they have no faith, will they attend Mass? No. Therefore the Mass relates to the faith as means to end, and not as end to means. Therefore the New Mass is only a means, and if it is a mixture of good and bad in which its villainous fabricators had to keep enough good in order to deceive Catholics into accepting it when it was introduced in 1969, for instance enough good for possible validity, then God is easily great enough to work around the bad if He has a good reason to do so. To this day, does He have such a reason? Yes.
    All human souls that ever lived are the sheep of God, and His personal creation (Ps. 94, 7), He wants all of them to be saved (I Tim. II, 4), and not just the Catholics (or the Traditional Catholics). The Sacred Heart knows from eternity just how many of His sheep were deceived at Vatican II by their shepherds, how many were more sinned against than sinning, and He knows today how many good believing souls, how many believing priests and even bishops there still are, and who they are, and He reaches through to them in the diabolical mixture of the Novus Ordo, working around the bad and with what is still good, towards the salvation of their souls. And as for those who love the Newchurch and want its bad Mass, they have been reminded and warned by the miracles that they are choosing to go to Hell. If one starts out from the Heart of God, these Novus Ordo miracles make perfect sense . . .
    Kyrie eleison

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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #1 on: November 27, 2022, 06:54:27 PM »
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  • “ And as for those who love the Newchurch and want its bad Mass, they have been reminded and warned by the miracles that they are choosing to go to Hell”

    This I don’t understand.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #2 on: November 27, 2022, 07:54:38 PM »
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  • Since His Lordship, Bishop Williamson delights in having a "good sparring partner", here's a rebuttal punch. 


    French Catholic mystic, Marie-Julie Jahenny



    Ecstasy date November 27, 1901.


    Our Lord to Marie-Julie Jahenny:

    I give you a warning even today. The disciples who are not of My Holy Gospel are now in a great work of the mind to form as the second facsimiles when they will make to their idea and under the influence of the enemy of souls,
    a Mass that contains words odious in My sight.

    odious

    ō′dē-əs

    adjective

    • Arousing or deserving hatred or strong dislike. synonym: hateful.
    • Extremely unpleasant; repulsive: synonym: offensive.
    • Hateful; deserving or receiving hatred.



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #3 on: November 27, 2022, 08:46:53 PM »
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  • The rape of a woman is objectively evil just as the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively evil.  The rape is an act of such grievous nature  as to characterize it as one of the necessary elements of a mortal sin.  Nevertheless, God may allow the conception of a human being (i.e., a creature composed of a body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God) to take place -- the miracle of life and that new creation of a human being made in the image and likeness of God is an objectively good thing, even though the subsequent birth is classified as illegitimate and the child is classified as a bastard.  (As an aside and perhaps needless to say, the bastard may possibly grow up to be a great saint.)

    Again, human conception with the infusion of an eternal soul (leaving aside any discussion concerning the exact time of ensoulment) took place as a result of the rape.

    Would not the miraculous bringing forth of a human life arising out of a rape (evil in and of itself) be in some way similar to the miraculous act of transubstantiation that takes place in the Sacrament of the Eucharist incorporated into the Novus Ordo Mass if the necessary elements of that Sacrament are present? 

    I do not claim that all that I have stated above is a 100% correct statement of truth. I think it is, but I don't claim it to be with anything approaching absolute certainty.  Rather  I put it forth for the purpose of good faith discussion.

    Just as we would never condone rape we need not ever condone the Novus Ordo Mass. At the same time however we should realize that God Almighty allows both and that from both there may arise good.  What is of paramount importance is that we clearly realize that any good comes about not because of the rape or the objectively deficient Mass, but in spite of them.

    Furthermore, our Catholic Theology informs us, of course, that a good end can never justify evil means. Rape and the Novus Ordo Mass are evil means and therefore no good end can be used to justify them.



    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2022, 10:49:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    The rape of a woman is objectively evil just as the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively evil.  The rape is an act of such grievous nature  as to characterize it as one of the necessary elements of a mortal sin.  Nevertheless, God may allow the conception of a human being (i.e., a creature composed of a body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God) to take place -- the miracle of life and that new creation of a human being made in the image and likeness of God is an objectively good thing, even though the subsequent birth is classified as illegitimate and the child is classified as a bastard.  (As an aside and perhaps needless to say, the bastard may possibly grow up to be a great saint.)

    Again, human conception with the infusion of an eternal soul (leaving aside any discussion concerning the exact time of ensoulment) took place as a result of the rape.

    Would not the miraculous bringing forth of a human life arising out of a rape (evil in and of itself) be in some way similar to the miraculous act of transubstantiation that takes place in the Sacrament of the Eucharist incorporated into the Novus Ordo Mass if the necessary elements of that Sacrament are present? 

    I do not claim that all that I have stated above is a 100% correct statement of truth. I think it is, but I don't claim it to be with anything approaching absolute certainty.  Rather  I put it forth for the purpose of good faith discussion.

    Just as we would never condone rape we need not ever condone the Novus Ordo Mass. At the same time however we should realize that God Almighty allows both and that from both there may arise good.  What is of paramount importance is that we clearly realize that any good comes about not because of the rape or the objectively deficient Mass, but in spite of them.

    Furthermore, our Catholic Theology informs us, of course, that a good end can never justify evil means. Rape and the Novus Ordo Mass are evil means and therefore no good end can be used to justify them.
    A very thoughtful, cogent, even semi-mystical post.  We don't often read on CI offerings of this caliber.  I am forced to internalize the instruction, and admit, tentatively, that it might be from God.



    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2022, 11:04:53 PM »
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  • Rape is a great evil but whether it's based on lust, or to wield power, it's a 'natural' inclination.  There is the chance life might result.  The New Mass is the exact opposite - if you go to it, you will lose your faith, belief in the Real Presence, etc. - by its very nature the New Mass takes away life.

    The New Mass was designed by a Freemason, liberals, and six Protestant ministers in order to make it less Catholic.  It is an objective attack on Christ's saving work for mankind. 

    The tragic reality of rape and to the tragic destruction of the Catholic Mass are not in the same universe by comparison.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #6 on: November 28, 2022, 12:34:49 AM »
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  • Since the original topic was re: NO Eucharistic miracles(s), I can see no other Heavenly intention for it other than to validate and confirm actual transubstantiation within the Novus Ordo Mass . The logical end point would be validation of the NO Mass and an encouragement to attend it - not the other way around. Although I found Charity’s post profound  as well, I think the average Catholic would look at a NO Eucharistic miracle as that validation for the new mass , not a miraculous intentional Consecration “aberrancy” arising from a corrupted liturgy

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #7 on: November 28, 2022, 01:07:00 AM »
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  • I reason differently regarding these "Eucharistic" "miracles" --

    1) Novus Ordo Mass is offesive to God (Protestant bastardizing of the Rite along with sacriledgeous Jєω substitution of the Catholic Offertory, the part of the Mass most despised by Luther, with words from the тαℓмυd).

    2) Catholics may not attend the NOM.

    3) God would, therefore, not perform miracles in connection with NOM that might lead people to conclude that it's OK to attend the NOM and that it doesn't displease Him (a natural conclusion many would draw from such miracles -- in fact, it has led even Bishop Williamson to state in his previous letter that the NOM cannot be "completely condemned").

    4) Some of the alleged Eucharistic miracles appear to be preternatural (don't have a normal / natural explanation).

    5) Demons are capable of simulating such "miracles".

    CONCLUSION:  Demons simulated those alleged NOM Eucharistic miracles that cannot be attributed to natural causes (including human fraud).

    6) Demons are not permitted by God to tamper with the Blessed Sacrament.

    CONCLUSION:  Those alleged particles of the Blessed Sacrament affected by these alleged miracles were not validly consecrated, and the Mass at which they were "consecrated" were invalid (whether due to invalidity of the Rite itself or due to the invalidity of the priest or both).

    In other words, I arrive at the EXACT OPPOSITE conclusion as Bishop Williamson.

    This has always been the attitude of the Church toward "miracles" and "private revelations".  We start with faith and Catholic theology and use those at litmus tests to discern whether the miracles might be of God or not.  Thus I reject these "miracles" as not of God.  Since demons are easily capable of simulating such "miracles", any that do not have a normal / natural explanation are of diabolical origin.

    How can Bishop Williamson alleged that these "miracles" are indisputable?  Sure, there may be evidence that these were preternatural, but what about the demonic explanation?  It would be trivial for a demon to swap out a piece of bread with human blood and human heart tissue.  Bishop Williamson uses the term beyond dispute equivocally.  Even if it's beyond dispute that the phenomena are preternatural, that does not mean that it's beyond despute that they are of God.

    Why would the devil do this?  Precisely in order to persuade Traditional Catholics to waver in their opposition to the NOM, their refusal to assist at it, and their assessment that the NOM is of doubtful validity.  And Bishop Williamson is falling for and playing into this diabolical plot.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #8 on: November 28, 2022, 03:05:33 AM »
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  • A demonstration of faith was enacted by St. Louis King Louis IX of France. His biographies relate that once, during the exposition of the Blessed Sacrament in the chapel in his residence, the saint was working in his study when a courtier excitedly burst in, exclaiming, “Sire, the Infant Jesus is appearing in the Host upon the altar!” the saint calmly continued his writing, quietly replying, “I could not believe more firmly in Christ’s presence in the Eucharist if I were to behold a miracle.”

    “Unless you see signs and wonders, you believe not.” Our Lord Jesus Christ

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #9 on: November 28, 2022, 07:38:07 AM »
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  • Rape is a great evil but whether it's based on lust, or to wield power, it's a 'natural' inclination.  There is the chance life might result.  The New Mass is the exact opposite - if you go to it, you will lose your faith, belief in the Real Presence, etc. - by its very nature the New Mass takes away life.

    The New Mass was designed by a Freemason, liberals, and six Protestant ministers in order to make it less Catholic.  It is an objective attack on Christ's saving work for mankind. 

    The tragic reality of rape and to the tragic destruction of the Catholic Mass are not in the same universe by comparison.
    Rape is also a fully human act.  Yes, God can bring good out of it.  However, the (Holy) Mass is supposed to be from Christ's Holy Church. It can't be evil at all. God should not have to bring good from it. 

    False Christs, false prophets and all....
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #10 on: November 28, 2022, 08:14:45 AM »
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  • Since the original topic was re: NO Eucharistic miracles(s), I can see no other Heavenly intention for it other than to validate and confirm actual transubstantiation within the Novus Ordo Mass . The logical end point would be validation of the NO Mass and an encouragement to attend it - not the other way around. Although I found Charity’s post profound  as well, I think the average Catholic would look at a NO Eucharistic miracle as that validation for the new mass , not a miraculous intentional Consecration “aberrancy” arising from a corrupted liturgy
    Devil's advocate here- I don't believe they are legitimate miracles either. Just following a path of logic for someone who believes that they actually are.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #11 on: November 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM »
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  • With 53 years of hindsight, many trads realize the Church was hijacked in 1958 and a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Jєω-pope thrust upon us a concocted de-sacralized mass.

    Technically speaking, the words of the Consecration liturgy were changed, therefore the rite is a “dud” and cannot confect the Holy Eucharist. 

    If one wants to argue this point, then in effect, you are not with Our Lord, but defending the legitimacy of the hijacked, schismatic Church.

    It’s clear cut, Black & White, Si, Si and No, No.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #12 on: November 28, 2022, 10:27:12 AM »
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  • Rape is also a fully human act.  Yes, God can bring good out of it.  However, the (Holy) Mass is supposed to be from Christ's Holy Church. It can't be evil at all. God should not have to bring good from it. 

    False Christs, false prophets and all...

    Why anyone would give this post a thumbs down is beyond me.  Wow.  Welcome to CathInfo... 

    You need three things to make a sacrament valid.  Just as the Form was purposely derailed, it seems people forget about the intent (which baffles me with +Williamson's position).  If Freemasons, liberals and Protestants actually had the intent of the Catholic Church then get on over to your local New Order and support your local bishop.  Yes, Virginia, it really is that easy.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #13 on: November 28, 2022, 10:33:54 AM »
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  • Why anyone would give this post a thumbs down is beyond me.  Wow.  Welcome to CathInfo...

    You need three things to make a sacrament valid.  Just as the Form was purposely derailed, it seems people forget about the intent (which baffles me with +Williamson's position).  If Freemasons, liberals and Protestants actually had the intent of the Catholic Church then get on over to your local New Order and support your local bishop.  Yes, Virginia, it really is that easy.
    Because I dared to disagree with the rape analogy?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #14 on: November 28, 2022, 11:06:42 AM »
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  • Because I dared to disagree with the rape analogy?
    Who knows? I totally agreed and equalized it for you.

    I disagree with the good bishop on this matter. Whether the Eucharistic Miracles are valid or not we will never know in this world, heck, as far as that goes God does not need a valid host to make miracles with. But we do know the new "mass" is evil and we do know that the reason it was perpetrated was in order to replace the true Mass, not to worship God.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse