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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 11819 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2022, 11:06:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 30, 2022, 11:05:03 AM
    The email only referred to people leaving because of +Williamson's comments. 

    What is it that they are leaving, exactly? A chapel? You see, Bp Williamson view's on this matter have not changed for quite some time. Were those who supposedly left really not aware of Bp. Williamson's views? That seems very odd.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #46 on: November 30, 2022, 11:07:03 AM »
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    • The authenticity of these supposed miracles is vouched for by the same people that tell us there was only one Sister Lucy, and that the Third Secret was revealed about 20 years ago. They also tell us with infallible certainty that Paul VI is currently enjoying the beatific vision. Okay. ::)
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #47 on: November 30, 2022, 11:09:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 30, 2022, 11:06:58 AM
    What is it that they are leaving, exactly? A chapel?

    Father's Mass circuit.  Different groups on the route have now distanced themselves because of +Williamson's comments.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #48 on: November 30, 2022, 11:10:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 30, 2022, 11:09:00 AM
    Father's Mass circuit.  Different groups on the route have now distanced themselves because of +Williamson's comments.

    So how could they have not been aware of Bp. Williamson's views on this matter? It has hardly been kept a secret. Not at all. Something sounds fishy.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #49 on: November 30, 2022, 11:15:14 AM »
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    • What sounds fishy about it?  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #50 on: November 30, 2022, 11:17:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 30, 2022, 11:15:14 AM
    What sounds fishy about it? 

    I've asked you this twice now, so please try to pay attention. How is it that those who left have been unaware of +W's views on this subject? They haven't changed, and they haven't been kept secret. It doesn't make any sense at all. That's why it sounds fishy to me. I don't believe it at all (what you've claimed regarding half of the people leaving, and you didn't really even explain what they were leaving exactly. Maybe it was just an email list they were leaving, and who would care about that).
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #51 on: November 30, 2022, 11:26:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on November 30, 2022, 11:07:03 AM
    The authenticity of these supposed miracles is vouched for by the same people that tell us there was only one Sister Lucy, and that the Third Secret was revealed about 20 years ago. They also tell us with infallible certainty that Paul VI is currently enjoying the beatific vision. Okay. ::)

    So, the problem I have with the "authenticity" of the miracles is equivocal understanding of what is meant by "authentic".

    Simply because you can rule out natural causes, including human fraud, and demonstrate that the phenomena were in fact preternatural, this does NOT rule out the diabolical.  So, for instance, the docuŠ¼ented phenomena at Garabandal do seem to be very much preternatural.  But this does not mean it is of God.

    Bishop Williamson states that the miracles cannot be disputed.  Well, the Polish ones could be suspect.  Those were both cases of a single individual going back later and allegedly "finding" the blood on "consecrated Hosts" that had been put away to naturally dissolve after having been dropped.  What's very strange is that the two Polish ones are nearly identical ... both involving the exact same scenario, where a Host was dropped and then put aside to dissolve in this manner, only for someone to later find it with blood on it.  That seems strange to me.  Bishop Williamson urged someone to check the internet ... as if there have never been fake / fraudulent posts made on the internet.

    But let's say that there's miracle that took place in front of a number of people who are credible witesses, and the blood/flesh samples were proven at a lab to be authentic blood and human heart tissue, what's to stop the devil from swooping in to introduce this tissue from some other source?  Probably only a valid Blessed Sacrament (as I don't believe God would allow demons to tamper with it).  Of course, if it's just bread, as many of us believe, it might be fair game.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #52 on: November 30, 2022, 11:32:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 30, 2022, 11:06:58 AM
    What is it that they are leaving, exactly? A chapel? You see, Bp Williamson view's on this matter have not changed for quite some time. Were those who supposedly left really not aware of Bp. Williamson's views? That seems very odd.
    Perhaps THEIR views have changed.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #53 on: November 30, 2022, 11:32:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 30, 2022, 11:17:48 AM
    I've asked you this twice now, so please try to pay attention. How is it that those who left have been unaware of +W's views on this subject? They haven't changed, and they haven't been kept secret. It doesn't make any sense at all. That's why it sounds fishy to me. I don't believe it (what you've claimed).

    "Please try to pay attention."  You are funny, Meg.  I have to hand it to you.  Good one!

    "How is it that those who left have been unaware of +W's views on this subject?"  Now that's a good question.  I bailed years ago for this very reason.  After the viral email went around regarding the woman asking about it, I attended a conference in which, when asked to clarify his statement, +Williamson slammed his hand down on the table and said, "I don't take anything back."  I bailed at that point.

    "I don't believe it (what you've claimed)."  Funny again, Meg.  Again, I have to hand it to you.  Why don't you get on the email list and read it yourself instead of calling me a liar?  

    Meg wins the blue ribbon for clarity, charity and humor.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #54 on: November 30, 2022, 11:39:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 30, 2022, 11:32:09 AM
    "Please try to pay attention."  You are funny, Meg.  I have to hand it to you.  Good one!

    "How is it that those who left have been unaware of +W's views on this subject?"  Now that's a good question.  I bailed years ago for this very reason.  After the viral email went around regarding the woman asking about it, I attended a conference in which, when asked to clarify his statement, +Williamson slammed his hand down on the table and said, "I don't take anything back."  I bailed at that point.

    "I don't believe it (what you've claimed)."  Funny again, Meg.  Again, I have to hand it to you.  Why don't you get on the email list and read it yourself instead of calling me a liar? 

    Meg wins the blue ribbon for clarity, charity and humor.

    You keep evading the question. You are the one who has said that half of the people have left a circuit of a Resistance priest. What is it that they are really leaving exactly? An email list? You need to back up your claim, which you seem have no intention of doing. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #55 on: November 30, 2022, 11:46:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 30, 2022, 11:39:06 AM
    You keep evading the question. You are the one who has said that half of the people have left a circuit of a Resistance priest. What is it that they are really leaving exactly? An email list? You need to back up your claim, which you obviously have no intention of doing.

    Meg...

    - Nowhere on God's green earth did I state half the people have left.

    - "What is it they are really leaving exactly?  An email list?"  They are really leaving Father's Mass circuit because of +Williamson's comments.  Not to be mean here but do you understand what a Mass circuit is?

    - "You need to back up your claim..." 
    I'm not going to publish the priest's email which goes out to a group.  I have no authority to do that.  But you can, if you'd like, start joining email lists of priests and read what they send out.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #56 on: November 30, 2022, 11:49:15 AM »
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    • I agree that Bishop Williamson's views about the NOM have been out there for nearly two years.  So I'm curious for about what the new development is.

    There was a bit of an extra thing he put out a couple weeks ago, but I'm curious if that had an effect.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #57 on: November 30, 2022, 11:50:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on November 30, 2022, 11:46:06 AM
    Meg...

    - Nowhere on God's green earth did I state half the people have left.

    - "What is it they are really leaving exactly?  An email list?"  They are really leaving Father's Mass circuit because of +Williamson's comments.  Not to be mean here but do you understand what a Mass circuit is?

    - "You need to back up your claim..."
    I'm not going to publish the priest's email which goes out to a group.  I have no authority to do that.  But you can, if you'd like, start joining email lists of priests and read what they send out.

    Okay. My mistake, and I apologize. So many have left, as opposed to half. What are they leaving, exactly? An email list, or a chapel? Do you not know exactly?

    You don't need to post or publish any info about the group in order to answer a simple question. You are still evading the question.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #58 on: November 30, 2022, 11:53:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 30, 2022, 11:26:07 AM
    So, the problem I have with the "authenticity" of the miracles is equivocal understanding of what is meant by "authentic".

    Simply because you can rule out natural causes, including human fraud, and demonstrate that the phenomena were in fact preternatural, this does NOT rule out the diabolical.  So, for instance, the docuŠ¼ented phenomena at Garabandal do seem to be very much preternatural.  But this does not mean it is of God.

    Bishop Williamson states that the miracles cannot be disputed.  Well, the Polish ones could be suspect.  Those were both cases of a single individual going back later and allegedly "finding" the blood on "consecrated Hosts" that had been put away to naturally dissolve after having been dropped.  What's very strange is that the two Polish ones are nearly identical ... both involving the exact same scenario, where a Host was dropped and then put aside to dissolve in this manner, only for someone to later find it with blood on it.  That seems strange to me.  Bishop Williamson urged someone to check the internet ... as if there have never been fake / fraudulent posts made on the internet.

    But let's say that there's miracle that took place in front of a number of people who are credible witesses, and the blood/flesh samples were proven at a lab to be authentic blood and human heart tissue, what's to stop the devil from swooping in to introduce this tissue from some other source?  Probably only a valid Blessed Sacrament (as I don't believe God would allow demons to tamper with it).  Of course, if it's just bread, as many of us believe, it might be fair game.
    .

    Yes, this was my point. These supposed Eucharistic miracles did not take place in front of any of us. In order to believe them, we have to accept the word of various Novus Ordo prelates, as well as lab technicians, etc. None of those people enjoy any presumption that they are telling the truth.

    Yes, there were probably preternatural events at Garabandal, which did take place in front of numerous witnesses who probably are basically credible, or at least have no reason to lie. There is also video evidence of these things, which although not conclusive does seem to support the idea that things against the laws of nature took place there. But none of these events indicate anything in favor of the new Mass. In fact, I believe the new Mass hadn't been released yet when the events at Garabandal took place.

    And yes, the devil certainly has power to produce signs and wonders, and what he tends to do is usually things that are weird, bizarre and useless, such as the weird stunts that the children performed at Garabandal. I think what happened there has every sign of satanic origin.

    In any case, the miracles that Bp. Williamson is appealing to can easily be dismissed as lacking any real proof they happened at all.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #59 on: November 30, 2022, 11:57:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 30, 2022, 11:50:16 AM
    What are they leaving, exactly? An email list, or a chapel? Do you not know exactly?

    You don't need to post any info about the group in order to answer a simple question. You are still evading the question.

    I think this is where the misunderstanding is...

    They are leaving Father's Mass circuit - a Mass circuit is where a priest will travel to different chapels to service the needs of the faithful.  So, when I worked at the SSPX retreat house in Los Gatos, for example, I used to drive Fr. Alphonsus all over the state of California to serve different chapels.  His Mass circuit went out to Bakersfield, sometimes out to San Jose, Sacramento, etc.

    The priest in this case is driving all over to serve different chapels.  Some of those groups have now cut themselves off from his circuit.
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