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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)  (Read 11829 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2022, 10:03:44 AM »
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  • So, if the New Mass is 100% valid, confects the Body of Our Lord, offers true Eucharistic miracles, provides supernatural grace why aren't you assisting there?

    If that's what you took away from my post, then you need to re-read it. I'll leave it at that.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #31 on: November 30, 2022, 10:12:33 AM »
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  • Isn't transubstantiation the true miracle -- Eucharistic Miracles are no more or less supernatural than what takes place at every valid Mass. And the grace that comes along with the Mass and the Holy Eucharist is 100% supernatural.

    But you should have seen the wicked priests and bishops who lived before the Protestant Revolt. I wasn't there, but I have a good imagination and I've read my history books. Let's just say the Protestants DID have something to go on, a grain of truth, something that resonated with the disaffected Faithful -- that the Church WAS in a horrible, sorry state. Widespread ignorance, avarice, doctrinal error, moral depravity (including concubinage) and so forth. Priests were slaves to all 7 of the capital sins; guilty of mortal sins against all 10 of the Commandments (some more common than others).

    Many purist Trads, if they found ourselves in such circuмstances, would be revolted, wash our hands of the whole thing, and would become home-aloners -- or even Protestants, once an eloquent heresiarch appeared in our village and started out by decrying the abuses -- speaking the truth. Just look at Pfeifferville. Those people went off the deep end, joining a cult, because their leader has a foundation of truth to go off -- and the people just go along for the ride. They come for the condemnation of the various neo-SSPX evils (GOOD!) and stay for the cult (BAD!) Just like poor Catholics in the 1500's came for the condemnation of clerical vices (GOOD!) and stayed for the heresy (BAD!)

    Well said! 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #32 on: November 30, 2022, 10:25:37 AM »
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  • In my opinion, the 7 Capital Sins being used and abused does not equate to the Vicar of Christ forcing, by law, a Mass that produces miracles and also leads you to Hell.  One is bad living, the other is total apostasy.

    +Williamson believes -

    - the Pope is a real pope
    - the mass is a real mass
    - the miracles are real miracles
    - you will go to Hell if you attend it

    Imagine if he promoted the opposite -

    - the pope is not a real pope
    - the mass is not a real mass
    - the miracles are not real miracles
    - you will go to Heaven if you attend it

    That would be a strange religion indeed.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #33 on: November 30, 2022, 10:36:37 AM »
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  • The rape of a woman is objectively evil just as the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively evil.  The rape is an act of such grievous nature  as to characterize it as one of the necessary elements of a mortal sin.  Nevertheless, God may allow the conception of a human being (i.e., a creature composed of a body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God) to take place -- the miracle of life and that new creation of a human being made in the image and likeness of God is an objectively good thing, even though the subsequent birth is classified as illegitimate and the child is classified as a bastard.  (As an aside and perhaps needless to say, the bastard may possibly grow up to be a great saint.)

    Again, human conception with the infusion of an eternal soul (leaving aside any discussion concerning the exact time of ensoulment) took place as a result of the rape.

    Would not the miraculous bringing forth of a human life arising out of a rape (evil in and of itself) be in some way similar to the miraculous act of transubstantiation that takes place in the Sacrament of the Eucharist incorporated into the Novus Ordo Mass if the necessary elements of that Sacrament are present? 

    I do not claim that all that I have stated above is a 100% correct statement of truth. I think it is, but I don't claim it to be with anything approaching absolute certainty.  Rather  I put it forth for the purpose of good faith discussion.

    Just as we would never condone rape we need not ever condone the Novus Ordo Mass. At the same time however we should realize that God Almighty allows both and that from both there may arise good.  What is of paramount importance is that we clearly realize that any good comes about not because of the rape or the objectively deficient Mass, but in spite of them.

    Furthermore, our Catholic Theology informs us, of course, that a good end can never justify evil means. Rape and the Novus Ordo Mass are evil means and therefore no good end can be used to justify them.

    Terrible analogy. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #34 on: November 30, 2022, 10:39:13 AM »
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  • I'm going to get flack for this, but it seems evident that it's mostly sedevacantists who are in disagreement with the +W's latest EC. Not that anyone has to agree with it, but it just serves to highlight how much sedevacantists differ in belief as opposed with that of the Resistance.

    With sedevacantists, it's all or nothing, and the situation is completely black and white. That's not how non-sedevacantists (such as the Resistance) view the Crisis in the Church, however.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #35 on: November 30, 2022, 10:42:39 AM »
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  • If that's what you took away from my post, then you need to re-read it. I'll leave it at that.
    OK, I re-read.  Maybe you need to better explain it.

    Do you agree with Bishop Williamson that the New Mass is valid, confects the Eucharist, offers Euchristic miracles, and provides supernatural grace?  That post sounded like you did.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #36 on: November 30, 2022, 10:43:48 AM »
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  • I'm going to get flack for this, but it seems evident that it's mostly sedevacantists who are in disagreement with the +W's latest EC. Not that anyone has to agree with it, but it just serves to highlight how much sedevacantists differ in belief as opposed with that of the Resistance.

    With sedevacantists, it's all or nothing, and the situation is completely black and white. That's not how non-sedevacantists (such as the Resistance) view the Crisis in the Church, however.
    Mostly but not all...thankfully.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #37 on: November 30, 2022, 10:47:21 AM »
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  • Mostly but not all...thankfully.

    Yes, quite right, 2 Vermont. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #38 on: November 30, 2022, 10:48:14 AM »
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  • In my opinion, the 7 Capital Sins being used and abused does not equate to the Vicar of Christ forcing, by law, a Mass that produces miracles and also leads you to Hell.  One is bad living, the other is total apostasy.

    +Williamson believes -

    - the Pope is a real pope
    - the mass is a real mass
    - the miracles are real miracles
    - you will go to Hell if you attend it

    Imagine if he promoted the opposite -

    - the pope is not a real pope
    - the mass is not a real mass
    - the miracles are not real miracles
    - you will go to Heaven if you attend it

    That would be a strange religion indeed. 
    A Catholic Mass that both produces miracles AND leads you to Hell.  :facepalm:  How can this be a Catholic position to have?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #39 on: November 30, 2022, 10:52:44 AM »
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  • That's not how non-sedevacantists (such as the Resistance) view the Crisis in the Church, however.

    A Resistance priest sent out a lengthy email a couple of days ago, which I'd mentioned, lamenting the fact that many under his wing have now separated themselves from him over +Williamson's comments.  Many Resisters, it turns out, don't agree with +Williamson regarding the New Order Bastardo Missae.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #40 on: November 30, 2022, 10:55:34 AM »
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  • A Catholic Mass that both produces miracles AND leads you to Hell.  :facepalm:  How can this be a Catholic position to have?

    It is only possible in that parallel theological universe known as 'Recognize and Resist'.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #41 on: November 30, 2022, 10:58:32 AM »
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  • A Resistance priest sent out a lengthy email a couple of days ago, which I'd mentioned, lamenting the fact that many under his wing have now separated themselves from him over +Williamson's comments.  Many Resisters, it turns out, don't agree with +Williamson regarding the New Order Bastardo Missae.

    Are they really Resisters, or sedevacantist resisters? There's a difference. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #42 on: November 30, 2022, 11:00:52 AM »
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  • Are they really Resisters, or sedevacantist resisters? There's a difference.

    One needn't be a sedevacantist to disagree with Bishop Williamson regarding the NOM.  Father Hewko (notoriously ANTI-sedevacantist) would be one of those.  Sedevacantists were never really "on board" with Bishop Williamson in the first place, so there's no "separation" taking place as a result.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #43 on: November 30, 2022, 11:02:55 AM »
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  • One needn't be a sedevacantist to disagree with Bishop Williamson regarding the NOM.  Father Hewko (notoriously ANTI-sedevacantist) would be one of those.  Sedevacantists were never really "on board" with Bishop Williamson in the first place, so there's no "separation" taking place as a result.

    Well, yes; true, but most of those on this thread who are disagreeing are sedevacantists. Is that just a coincidence? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing Part 1 (no. 802)
    « Reply #44 on: November 30, 2022, 11:05:03 AM »
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  • Are they really Resisters, or sedevacantist resisters? There's a difference.

    The email only referred to people leaving because of +Williamson's comments.