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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)  (Read 10295 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2022, 06:33:39 PM »
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  • And this is exactly what the Novus Ordite would tell us.  Bishop Williamson's line of thinking regarding NO "miracles" is dangerous and from what you reported in the other thread, I suspect that a number of Resistance folks are seeing it as dangerous as well.

    Dangerous to whom, and why? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #121 on: December 15, 2022, 10:41:12 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's line of thinking regarding NO "miracles" is dangerous and from what you reported in the other thread, I suspect that a number of Resistance folks are seeing it as dangerous as well.

    Indeed.  I wrote of the group email I received from a Resistance priest who stated exactly that - some of his faithful have now cut ties because of +Williamson's statements.  

    In the old days the phrase was basically, 'to be Catholic must we now become Protestants?'  Nowadays, that phrase is turning into, 'to be trads, must we now become New Ordites?'



    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #122 on: December 15, 2022, 10:51:25 PM »
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  • Dangerous to whom, and why?

    One of the things Christ promised was that, in His name, as proof, miracles would abound in the world.

    But history has shown us that the Bastard Missae has yielded the exact opposite result - empty churches, no vocations, perversion of the worst kind, etc.  Created by enemies of the Church, el Bastardo has obliterated the Catholic religion in fifty short years.  According to Tim Staples, only about 5% believe in the Real Presence - and that's among the slim number who even still attend el Bastardo.

    So, to directly answer your question - it's dangerous to anyone who actually cares about the Catholic religion during The Great Apostasy.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #123 on: December 15, 2022, 11:04:42 PM »
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  • One of the things Christ promised was that, in His name, as proof, miracles would abound in the world.

    But history has shown us that the Bastard Missae has yielded the exact opposite result - empty churches, no vocations, perversion of the worst kind, etc.  Created by enemies of the Church, el Bastardo has obliterated the Catholic religion in fifty short years.  According to Tim Staples, only about 5% believe in the Real Presence - and that's among the slim number who even still attend el Bastardo.

    So, to directly answer your question - it's dangerous to anyone who actually cares about the Catholic religion during The Great Apostasy.

    Still not seeing how it's dangerous or to whom. Maybe....... the biggest danger is to the sedevacantists. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #124 on: December 15, 2022, 11:28:30 PM »
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  • Still not seeing how it's dangerous or to whom. Maybe....... the biggest danger is to the sedevacantists.

    Well, I can only speak for one sedevacantist - myself - and it doesn't impose a danger on me whatsoever.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #125 on: December 16, 2022, 04:25:44 AM »
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  • Still not seeing how it's dangerous or to whom. Maybe....... the biggest danger is to the sedevacantists.
    The thing about miracles is they draw people to the miracle, consider Lourdes and Fatima to name only two. The expectation therefore is for NO miracles to draw people into the NO, *that* is the danger. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #126 on: December 16, 2022, 01:56:44 PM »
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  • Well, I can only speak for one sedevacantist - myself - and it doesn't impose a danger on me whatsoever.

    I can understand that. I can only speak for myself too. This issue poses no danger to me either. And yet some of the sedevacantists here have said that this is a danger. Therefore, the sedevacantists (and semi-sedevacantists) feel it is a danger to others. That's speaking for others, even if you yourself don't feel a need to so.

    I don't get why the sedevacantists are upset by this. It's not like the Resistance is a large organization. It only represents a tiny portion of Tradition in the U.S., and the sedes far outnumber Resistance adherents. So why be upset by something that +W says? It would be like me caring about what Bp. Dolan or Bp. Sanborn thinks or says. I rarely comment or care about what they say, since I have nothing to do with them. So why should sedes care about what a Resistance bishop says? And why should they get to speak for all of Tradition? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #127 on: December 16, 2022, 03:28:11 PM »
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  • 1) I can understand that. I can only speak for myself too. This issue poses no danger to me either. And yet some of the sedevacantists here have said that this is a danger. Therefore, the sedevacantists (and semi-sedevacantists) feel it is a danger to others. 

    2) I don't get why the sedevacantists are upset by this. It's not like the Resistance is a large organization. It only represents a tiny portion of Tradition in the U.S., and the sedes far outnumber Resistance adherents. So why be upset by something that +W says? It would be like me caring about what Bp. Dolan or Bp. Sanborn thinks or says. I rarely comment or care about what they say, since I have nothing to do with them. So why should sedes care about what a Resistance bishop says?

    3) And why should they get to speak for all of Tradition?

    1) It poses no threat to me but to Catholics the world over it has absolutely destroyed their faith.  I would say that means it's dangerous to others.  Tim Staples, the mainstream apologist, released a study a few years ago which showed that only 5% of New Ordites believe in the Real Presence.  That means 95% of New Ordites are objectively Protestants.  That would also mean the Bastard Mass is a vehicle of destruction.

    2) For me, I'm upset because +Williamson is promoting a false idea which says a canonized pope can lawfully enforce a true Mass that inherently leads souls into apostasy and heresy.  

    3) I don't believe I represent 'all of Tradition'.  I'm only applying Catholic teaching to an idea that clearly goes against Catholic teaching/belief on the nature of the Mass and it's salvific work for mankind.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably the Novus Ordo.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #128 on: December 16, 2022, 05:14:05 PM »
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  • 1) It poses no threat to me but to Catholics the world over it has absolutely destroyed their faith.  I would say that means it's dangerous to others.  Tim Staples, the mainstream apologist, released a study a few years ago which showed that only 5% of New Ordites believe in the Real Presence.  That means 95% of New Ordites are objectively Protestants.  That would also mean the Bastard Mass is a vehicle of destruction.

    But wouldn't Bp. Williamson's view of the Novus Ordo miracles possibly serve to help the Novus Ordo folks to believe in the Real Presence?  But then again, I think that there's close to a zero chance that the Novus Ordo folks are going to pay any attention to what +W has to say, since he has a limited readership audience. So I wonder, who did he intend to reach with his ideas about miracles in the Novus Ordo?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #129 on: December 16, 2022, 05:50:55 PM »
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  • 1) But wouldn't Bp. Williamson's view of the Novus Ordo miracles possibly serve to help the Novus Ordo folks to believe in the Real Presence?

    2) So I wonder, who did he intend to reach with his ideas about miracles in the Novus Ordo?
    Sorry for the length, starting with point 2 -

    2) Initially, as far as I know, it began with the statement he made to the woman who asked him at a conference if it was ok to go.  While he acknowledged it was bad, he also said it was ok 'if it nourishes your faith'.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt - it was a public conference, point blank questions, internet goes everywhere instantly - but thereafter I attended another conference in the backwoods of Oregon and he was asked if he stood by the statement.  For effect, he slammed his hand down on the table and said, "Absolutely."  That was the beginning of the end of my time in the Resistance.

    For point 1 -

    There are so many doctrinal issues with the Bastard Missae it's tough to know where to begin.  Essentially, why give the green light to something when you know it rejects the Sacrifice of Calvary, and was designed by Protestants, Liberals and Freemasons, in exchange for a Protestant happy meal?  I have a brother with a family who is staunch/conservative Ordites and +Williamson's statement completely vindicates what they're doing.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #130 on: December 16, 2022, 05:59:54 PM »
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  • Sorry for the length, starting with point 2 -

    2) Initially, as far as I know, it began with the statement he made to the woman who asked him at a conference if it was ok to go.  While he acknowledged it was bad, he also said it was ok 'if it nourishes your faith'.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt - it was a public conference, point blank questions, internet goes everywhere instantly - but thereafter I attended another conference in the backwoods of Oregon and he was asked if he stood by the statement.  For effect, he slammed his hand down on the table and said, "Absolutely."  That was the beginning of the end of my time in the Resistance.

    For point 1 -

    There are so many doctrinal issues with the Bastard Missae it's tough to know where to begin.  Essentially, why give the green light to something when you know it rejects the Sacrifice of Calvary, and was designed by Protestants, Liberals and Freemasons, in exchange for a Protestant happy meal?  I have a brother with a family who is staunch/conservative Ordites and +Williamson's statement completely vindicates what they're doing.

    Well, I have to wonder why +W is making these statements. For many of us who support the Resistance, it's not a big deal that the has said these things. I'm not concerned by them. I see +W's statements as having charity as their basis, and it's the charity shown by the Resistance bishops and priests that keeps me supporting them. Truth with charity. No other trad group has that combination, in my opinion. I understand that 'charity' can be an over-used word, which can have negative connotations, but I still think that charity is important, and it can be a part of the conversation.

    I don't think he's making these statements for the Novus ordo folks, nor does he seem to be making them for the Resistance supporters who care about the views of +ABL, so who is he making them to, or for?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #131 on: December 16, 2022, 06:43:46 PM »
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  • I don't think he's making these statements for the Novus ordo folks, nor does he seem to be making them for the Resistance supporters who care about the views of +ABL, so who is he making them to, or for?

    If he's not doing it for New Ordites, or the Resistance, and the SSPX is already on board with Rome anyway, then it feels like the correct answer is 'sedevacantists'? 

    If that's the case, he'll be preaching to an empty church for many days to come as sedes are concerned with Doctrine and not feelings such as, 'you should go if you think it nourishes your faith'.  But, yeah, I have no idea why he'd make any positive statements for the vehicle that has basically destroyed the Catholic faith in less than fifty years.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #132 on: December 16, 2022, 06:55:18 PM »
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  • If he's not doing it for New Ordites, or the Resistance, and the SSPX is already on board with Rome anyway, then it feels like the correct answer is 'sedevacantists'? 

    If that's the case, he'll be preaching to an empty church for many days to come as sedes are concerned with Doctrine and not feelings such as, 'you should go if you think it nourishes your faith'.  But, yeah, I have no idea why he'd make any positive statements for the vehicle that has basically destroyed the Catholic faith in less than fifty years.

    Yes, maybe it is for the sedevacantists, or maybe he just wants to remind everyone of charity. I don't really know. I can only guess.

    Well, he might indeed be preaching to an empty church if he lived in the U.S., since the U.S. is the home of sedevacantism. Good thing that +W is in England. Maybe that's why the Resistance has almost no presence in the U.S. Archbishop Lefebvre nearly gave up on the US. altogether after the situation with the Nine, though sedevacantists will say that that situation wasn't really about sedevacantism. But I think it was.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #133 on: December 16, 2022, 10:21:32 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre nearly gave up on the US. altogether after the situation with the Nine, though sedevacantists will say that that situation wasn't really about sedevacantism. But I think it was.

    Have you read Fr. Cekada's take on it?  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #134 on: December 16, 2022, 10:44:10 PM »
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  • Sorry for the length, starting with point 2 -

    2) Initially, as far as I know, it began with the statement he made to the woman who asked him at a conference if it was ok to go.  While he acknowledged it was bad, he also said it was ok 'if it nourishes your faith'.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt - it was a public conference, point blank questions, internet goes everywhere instantly - but thereafter I attended another conference in the backwoods of Oregon and he was asked if he stood by the statement.  For effect, he slammed his hand down on the table and said, "Absolutely."  That was the beginning of the end of my time in the Resistance.

    For point 1 -

    There are so many doctrinal issues with the Bastard Missae it's tough to know where to begin.  Essentially, why give the green light to something when you know it rejects the Sacrifice of Calvary, and was designed by Protestants, Liberals and Freemasons, in exchange for a Protestant happy meal?  I have a brother with a family who is staunch/conservative Ordites and +Williamson's statement completely vindicates what they're doing.

    2) It’s a shame you didn’t have the humility to listen to him, since he was obviously correct in every aspect of that conference.

    1) Yes, you clearly seem confused by all the issues, which makes your statement in #2 all the more regrettable.  It has been evident in your short time here tgat you are not a clear thinker, and clump multiple concepts together, which leads to your present confusion.

    Quite frankly, you should not be discussing any theological topic, and focus on spiritual works.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."