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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)  (Read 10318 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2022, 12:16:52 PM »
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  • Obviously i don't know the depth of God's ways, but logic and reason tells me that having a  Eucharistic miracle within the confines of Tradition alone would promote truth of the Eucharist and of the true worship that He so desires. That would make sense to me.  Having a Eucharistic miracle in the midst of a false liturgy does not promote that at all.

    My logic and reason tell me the opposite: Tradition has no need of eucharistic miracles, since our faith is not being endangered by our worship. 

    Conversely, faith in the Real Presence is undermined by the Montinian rite, and according to St. Thomas, God would perform Eucharistic miracles precisely to restore or enhance faith in that dogma.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #106 on: December 15, 2022, 12:20:26 PM »
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  • Comments above in red.

    We're not talking about the "miracle" of transubstantiation, but visible signs and wonders seen by the naked eye over and above the consecration of a host. This is a critical distinction that you're missing.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #107 on: December 15, 2022, 12:25:43 PM »
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  • We're not talking about the "miracle" of transubstantiation, but visible signs and wonders seen by the naked eye over and above the consecration of a host. This is a critical distinction that you're missing.

    Not so: I acknowledged a variance in the species of miracles early on (possibly you were not yet part of the conversation).

    A miracle is a miracle (be it by the agency of men, an angel, or God Himself).

    My response is that to remain logically consistent, the Hewkonians should do as you have done (i.e., deny the per se validity of the Montinian rite).

    But knowing they would be at odds with +Lefebvre (for whom they pretend to be the last faithful followers), they're paralyzed into contradiction:

    Either depart from the teaching of Lefebvre on the NOM, or, remain at enmity with St. Thomas Aquinas regarding the purpose of Eucharistic miracles.

    The possibility that they could be wrong is not permitted to enter their minds.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #108 on: December 15, 2022, 12:35:45 PM »
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  • Not so.

    I acknowledged a variance in the species of miracles early on (possibly you were not yet part of the conversation).

    A miracle is  miracle (be it by the agency of men, angel, or God Himself).

    My response is that to remain logically consistent, the Hewkonians should do as you have done (i.e., deny the per se validity of the Montinian rite).

    But knowing they would be at odds with +Lefebvre (for whom they pretend to be the last faithful followers), they're trapped by contradiction or paralysis:

    Either depart from the teaching of Lefebvre on the NOM, or, remain at enmity with St. Thomas Aquinas regarding the purpose of Eucharistic miracles.

    What do you mean by "miracle"? You seem to deny that Satan can perform "miracles."

    I'm not sure what the "Hewkonian" position is. It seems to be that is it that you would not see visible miraculous signs and wonders at a Mass that was "offensive to God and harmful to souls" where there was the Real Presence. I say they are right in that, and agree.

    Maybe I'm not clear on the dispute between the "Hewkonian" position and the Lefebvre position. I didn't find it in this thread when I skimmed through. 

    Was the issue of "miracles" at a Novus Ordo Mass something that Lefebvre ever considered or dealt with?


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #109 on: December 15, 2022, 12:39:07 PM »
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  • Seems Sean's position is basically two-fold:

    1) Miracles in the NOM could bolster faith in the Real Presence.  Especially since the Real Presence has been under attack - True

    2) God can work a miracle at any time, and in any way, He so chooses - True

    Therefore, the recent NOM events, which can be counted on two or three fingers, could bolster the faith and might even be real.  He cites Aquinas to support this.

    The problem is as follows:
    Aquinas presupposes some things:  Namely that you have a real priest doing Calvary in an unbloody manner.

    1) The Dogma of the Real Presence has been under attack for the last 500 years.  But no one here would believe Eucharistic miracles were being done in an Anglican service.

    2) The Bastard Missae is inherently flawed, by design, and is not Catholic at all.  I showed this by citing 3 items - the Ottaviani Intervention, Saint Paul VI's original definition, and the Catholic requirements of Form, Matter and Intent.

    I agree with the Aquinas citation when you have a Catholic rite performed by a Catholic priest but according to Catholic definitions, the Bastardo is not Catholic.  It's just a real bastard.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #110 on: December 15, 2022, 12:42:45 PM »
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  • What do you mean by "miracle"? You seem to deny that Satan can perform "miracles."

         Satan can perform prodigies, but not miracles.

    I'm not sure what the "Hewkonian" position is. It seems to be that is it that you would not see visible miraculous signs and wonders at a Mass that was "offensive to God and harmful to souls" where there was the Real Presence. I say they are right in that, and agree.

           The Hewkonian contention is that God cannot perform a Eucharistic miracle at the Novus Ordo, because it would imply God's endorsement of the New Mass.  I have cited St. Thomas Aquinas to show that they are wrong (i.e., God doesn't perform miracles to endorse a rite of Mass, but to defend belief in the Real Presence).

    Maybe I'm not clear on the dispute between the "Hewkonian" position and the Lefebvre position. I didn't find it in this thread when I skimmed through.

           There are/were two EC threads running simultaneously for awhile.  Anyway, see previous comment.

    Was the issue of "miracles" at a Novus Ordo Mass something that Lefebvre ever considered or dealt with?

         Not that I am aware of (which makes the Hewkonian position even more arbitrary, in adddition to their error regarding the purpose of Eucharistic miracles, per St. Thomas).
    Comments in red above

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #111 on: December 15, 2022, 12:44:34 PM »
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  • We're not talking about the "miracle" of transubstantiation, but visible signs and wonders seen by the naked eye over and above the consecration of a host. This is a critical distinction that you're missing.

    Sean,

    Perhaps you can clarify, but you said in post #14 in this thread:


    Quote
    It never occurs to them how gratuitous and stupid that is, because were it true that a miracle can only mean the rite is pleasing to God, transubstantiation itself being a miracle, they would be forced to conclude the Novis Ordo is pleasing to God!


    It does indeed appear you're missing the critical distinction.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #112 on: December 15, 2022, 12:59:47 PM »
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  • Seems Sean's position is basically two-fold:

    1) Miracles in the NOM could bolster faith in the Real Presence.  Especially since the Real Presence has been under attack - True

    2) God can work a miracle at any time, and in any way, He so chooses - True

    Therefore, the recent NOM events, which can be counted on two or three fingers, could bolster the faith and might even be real.  He cites Aquinas to support this.

    The problem is as follows:
    Aquinas presupposes some things:  Namely that you have a real priest doing Calvary in an unbloody manner.

        Lefebvre never declared the NOM or the new rite of priestly ordination per se invalid.  For Hewkonians pretending to be the most faithful followers of Lefebvre, therefore, the possibility of invalidity does not exist for them.  Consequently, your concerns regarding validity do not enter the conversation (as they might for, say, sedevacantists).

    1) The Dogma of the Real Presence has been under attack for the last 500 years.  But no one here would believe Eucharistic miracles were being done in an Anglican service.

        Neither is anyone alleging them to occur at Anglican services.

    2) The Bastard Missae is inherently flawed, by design, and is not Catholic at all.  I showed this by citing 3 items - the Ottaviani Intervention, Saint Paul VI's original definition, and the Catholic requirements of Form, Matter and Intent.

        And it has been shown back to you ad nauseum that the rite of Masss has nothing to do with why god performs Eucharistic miracles (except to the extent that performin one at the NOM where the real presence is implicitly attacked is perfectly consistent with the reason St. Thomas says God performs them).

    I agree with the Aquinas citation when you have a Catholic rite performed by a Catholic priest but according to Catholic definitions, the Bastardo is not Catholic.  It's just a real bastard.

        Please explain the significance: If there has been a transubstantiation (thereby proving the validity of priest and rite), does not your argument implicitly suggest that the Real Presence itself is somehow defective or "less sacrosanct" then the same Real Presence confected at the TLM?

        Note: This is precisely what the Hewkonians believe, when thy suggest such a Eucharist is not capable of transmitting sacramental grace to well-disposed communicants at the NOM, which is flatly heretical, per Trent.


    See comments in red.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #113 on: December 15, 2022, 01:00:54 PM »
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  • Sean,

    Perhaps you can clarify, but you said in post #14 in this thread:



    It does indeed appear you're missing the critical distinction.


    How can I be missing it, when I've just again acknowledged it?

    In fact, in the same post you are quoting from (in the very first sentence), I'm already acknowledging a variety of species of Eucharistic miracles:

    "If the Montinian Rite is capable of confecting a valid sacrament through the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation, as the Hewkonians/Pfeifferians admit, then why not some other Eucharistic miracle?"
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #114 on: December 15, 2022, 01:12:37 PM »
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  • Of course God CAN work a Eucharistic miracle anywhere.  God could in theory work a Eucharistic miracle even IF the NOM were invalid.

    This is just speculation.  We'd probably both agree that God WOULD NOT work a Eucharistic miracle around the NOM if it were invalid.  I hold also that God WOULD NOT work a Eucharistic miracle around the NOM just because it's offensive and harmful ... to prevent giving people the impression that He approves of it and condones attending it.  You hold that God MIGHT if He had some other design about reinforcing belief in the Real Presence.  We're arguing about speculations that cannot be proven by either of us.

    We also know that the devil can simulate Eucharistic miracles.

    Final Conclusion (regardless of where one ends up on the speculations):  We can't use these "Eucharistic miracles" as "proof" of anything, whether it's the validity of the NOM or about whether it's permitted for Catholcs to attend it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #115 on: December 15, 2022, 01:17:12 PM »
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  • Hey Guys-

    I'm going to bow out of the conversation.

    So far, nobody has anathematized anyone, and that's a CI "miracle" of sorts.

    I'll follow along, but I'm not sure I can really add anything further (and more than this, I'd like to protect the good spirit which mostly animated this thread).

    Nice to have a debate for once which did not end uncharitably.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #116 on: December 15, 2022, 01:37:20 PM »
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  • Sean,

    I'll make this my last comment since you bowed out while the going is still good. :laugh1:

    You said:


    Quote
    The Hewkonian contention is that God cannot perform a Eucharistic miracle at the Novus Ordo, because it would imply God's endorsement of the New Mass.  I have cited St. Thomas Aquinas to show that they are wrong (i.e., God doesn't perform miracles to endorse a rite of Mass, but to defend belief in the Real Presence).



    The assumption in the question answered by St. Thomas is that it is a Catholic Mass that is not offensive to God and harmful to souls. The question of whether a visible miracle, sign or "wonder" could appear at a valid Mass that is "offensive to God and harmful to souls" is not under consideration, so the answer of St. Thomas doesn't help you in answering that question, which is the question on table. 

    God's purpose in performing a miracle at a Catholic Mass that everyone assumes is valid and not "offensive to God and harmful to souls" is obviously not to show that it is "not offensive to Him and harmful to souls" - His purpose in that context would clearly be other. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #117 on: December 15, 2022, 02:19:51 PM »
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  • The problem is as follows:
    Aquinas presupposes some things:  Namely that you have a real priest doing Calvary in an unbloody manner.

    1) The Dogma of the Real Presence has been under attack for the last 500 years.  But no one here would believe Eucharistic miracles were being done in an Anglican service.

    2) The Bastard Missae is inherently flawed, by design, and is not Catholic at all.  I showed this by citing 3 items - the Ottaviani Intervention, Saint Paul VI's original definition, and the Catholic requirements of Form, Matter and Intent.

    I agree with the Aquinas citation when you have a Catholic rite performed by a Catholic priest but according to Catholic definitions, the Bastardo is not Catholic.  It's just a real bastard.
    While I agree and also see this as simple, good common sense, Sean believes even at black masses a valid consecration can happen. It seems to me I heard such a thing could not happen, may have been Fr. Hesse not sure. At any rate, I do not think purposely consecrating a host with and for the intention of blaspheming it, is something thing that is possible. They steal valid hosts to blaspheme for this reason - imo.

    God does not need a consecrated host to make a miracle.
    Satan cannot make a eucharistic miracle using a consecrated host.

    If NOers believe in the miracles at all, most of them they have no idea what to make of it other than "God is showing His love for us." Then they go eat breakfast, go to their NO service and tap their feet to the beat of the guitars and drums, maybe a flute playing too while the female eucharistic minister and female speakers do their thing as the NO priest presides over the festivities.

    If trads are to believe in the NO miracles at all, then it seems the presumption should be that the miracles are from hell using a plain wafer and are designed to suck in more lost or confused people into the NO, or fool the ones seeking the truth to abandon their search and just stay put.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #118 on: December 15, 2022, 02:44:11 PM »
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  • If God might be producing the miracles, then might He also be suggesting trads stop congregating in illegal chapels?  Could it be time to start supporting the local diocese with it's True Mass?  In union with the pope's true representative?

    I welcome ideas that have to be hashed out but confess this is one of the strangest arguments I've heard being defended in the 'fight for Tradition'.  Years ago, after +Williamson's response went viral, I felt the Resistance was going doctrinally cross-eyed and heading into some strange waters.

    As to what +Lefebvre do, anyone can look at his history and acknowledge that 1) he was human and 2) he vacillated on different topics at different times.  'What would Lefebvre do' is not the barometer we should use, especially as he never had to deal with the likes of Franco.

    Cheers to all








    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #119 on: December 15, 2022, 05:04:47 PM »
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  • If God might be producing the miracles, then might He also be suggesting trads stop congregating in illegal chapels?  Could it be time to start supporting the local diocese with it's True Mass?  In union with the pope's true representative?

    And this is exactly what the Novus Ordite would tell us.  Bishop Williamson's line of thinking regarding NO "miracles" is dangerous and from what you reported in the other thread, I suspect that a number of Resistance folks are seeing it as dangerous as well.