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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)  (Read 10288 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2022, 04:26:10 PM »
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  • ...since they generally believe the rite flatly invalid (although they still need to explain why, with the essential rite of both the TLM and the Montinian Rite being identical, a sacrament is produced in the former, but not the latter).

    Because the intent was changed to be specifically not Catholic when they removed 'the stumbling blocks for the separated brethren' (that is to say, Catholic doctrine/dogmas).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #16 on: December 12, 2022, 04:33:46 PM »
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  • Because the intent was changed to be specifically not Catholic when they removed 'the stumbling blocks for the separated brethren' (that is to say, Catholic doctrine/dogmas).

    Thank you, MOTS.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #17 on: December 12, 2022, 04:44:21 PM »
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  • Thank you, MOTS.
     
    What does MOTS mean?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #18 on: December 12, 2022, 05:00:24 PM »
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  • I invite you to read the Ottaviani Intervention.  Here's one statement, among countless, from Chapter III, Part I:

    1. Ultimate purpose. The ultimate purpose of the Mass is the sacrifice of praise rendered to the Most Holy Trinity. This end conforms to the primary purpose of the Incarnation, explicitly enunciated by Christ Himself: "Coming into the world he saith: sacrifice and oblation thou wouldst not, but a body thou hast fitted me." (9)

    In the Novus Ordo, this purpose has disappeared:

    Having removed the keystone, the reformers had to put up scaffolding. Having suppressed the real purposes of the Mass, they had to substitute fictitious purposes of their own. This forced them to introduce actions stressing the union between priest and faithful, or among the faithful themselves-----and led to the ridiculous attempt to superimpose offerings for the poor and for the Church on the offering of the host to be immolated.


    Because Catholic teaching dictates that Form, Matter and Intent are required, and the intent is now clearly not Catholic - I'll stick with Not Valid.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #19 on: December 12, 2022, 05:16:55 PM »
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  • Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #20 on: December 12, 2022, 05:18:56 PM »
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  • I invite you to read the Ottaviani Intervention.  Here's one statement, among countless, from Chapter III, Part I:

    1. Ultimate purpose. The ultimate purpose of the Mass is the sacrifice of praise rendered to the Most Holy Trinity. This end conforms to the primary purpose of the Incarnation, explicitly enunciated by Christ Himself: "Coming into the world he saith: sacrifice and oblation thou wouldst not, but a body thou hast fitted me." (9)

    In the Novus Ordo, this purpose has disappeared:

    Having removed the keystone, the reformers had to put up scaffolding. Having suppressed the real purposes of the Mass, they had to substitute fictitious purposes of their own. This forced them to introduce actions stressing the union between priest and faithful, or among the faithful themselves-----and led to the ridiculous attempt to superimpose offerings for the poor and for the Church on the offering of the host to be immolated.


    Because Catholic teaching dictates that Form, Matter and Intent are required, and the intent is now clearly not Catholic - I'll stick with Not Valid.

    Thanks.

    After a 5-month hiatus, I'm just not argumentative.

    I've been reading that book for 30 years.

    I'm just not in the mode to get into battle right now.

    Perhaps after Christmas, we can revisit.

    Pax.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #21 on: December 12, 2022, 05:31:24 PM »
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  • Miracle
    Of
    The
    Sun

    Thanks, bud.

    Merry Christmas

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #22 on: December 12, 2022, 06:51:02 PM »
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  • My answers would be:


    Quote
    1) Greatly diminished, but not completely useless.  The SSPX can still be a stepping stone to the Resistance (i.e., pre-1992 SSPX).
    Personally, I'm not looking for a pre-1992 SSPX.  I'm looking for a restored Roman Catholic Church.

    Quote
    2) Can you please define "partial" and "full" betrayal?
    The question was badly phrased.  Better to ask:  Has SSPX leadership betrayed the faithful on any level?

    Quote
    3) Legacies (e.g., Jaidhofer Foundation).
    Jew money in other words.   I think I agree.


    One other question I might ask:  Your Excellency.  Could you explain how SSPX, much like New Church, has been covering up widespread Society sex scandals for decades?






    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #23 on: December 13, 2022, 06:10:35 AM »
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  • If the Montinian Rite is capable of confecting a valid sacrament through the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation, as the Hewkonians/Pfeifferians admit, then why not some other Eucharistic miracle?

    Sedevacantists can escape this argument, since they generally believe the rite flatly invalid (although they still need to explain why, with the essential rite of both the TLM and the Montinian Rite being identical, a sacrament is produced in the former, but not the latter).

    But the Hewkonians uncritically repeat like a mantra, "If there's a miracle there, it means the rite is pleasing to God."

    It never occurs to them how gratuitous and stupid that is, because were it true that a miracle can only mean the rite is pleasing to God, transubstantiation itself being a miracle, they would be forced to conclude the Novis Ordo is pleasing to God! 

    Or even more absurdly, they would be forced to declare that a valid Satanic Mass -at which would be present the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation- is pleasing to God.

    But knowing +Lefebvre didn't declare the per se invalidity of that rite, they're stuck in arbitrarity: This miracle doesn't mean the rite is pleasing to God, but that miracle does!
    I remember having this discussion about transubstantiation in the seminary when we were studying miracles in apologetics.

    In the apologetic sense, a miracle must be an observable fact, a factum sensibile, and so in this sense, transubstantiation is not a miracle. You could say God is just respecting the law that He has established with transubstantiation, but in a true miracle He is acting beyond the established order of nature, the MOTS being a case in point!

    So I believe Fr Hewko had a valid concern in this matter, a concern shared at the time by the overwhelming majority of those in the Resistance, even the priests, and I believe the onus was on Bishop Williamson to explain just how God could work such a miracle without somehow giving the divine seal of approval to the NOM and the conciliar establishment. 

    I was certainly shocked at the time, and I remember a disgruntled and discouraged fellow resistant, who has since returned to the SSPX, remonstrating "we don't need new ideas, we just need to continue in the same line of Mgr Lefebvre!". Most of us felt the same way, it didn't seem opportune. The priests who came our way went into damage control...

    But God's ways are not our ways. Bishop Williamson has, I believe, given a plausible explanation and so I withhold judgement. It came at a time when the Resistance was losing many souls to sedevacantism, and I think the good bishop was trying to impress upon us that, in spite of the fact that Tradition is the truth, nonetheless, the great majority of Catholics in the world today find themselves, often through no fault of their own, trapped in the conciliar mess, and God does not abandon His sheep. That is not to say of course that most souls in the conciliar mess are Catholic, that is altogether a different proposition!

    The fault of Frs Hewko and Pfeiffer was rather, in my opinion, the inordinate and unjustified nature of their attack. One wonders in hindsight if Fr Hewko would have taken it so far without Fr P's encouragement, and we all know now the alterior motives behind that. What a wonderful thing for Fr Hewko and his followers if he could find the humility to reconcile with Bishop Williamson. 



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #24 on: December 13, 2022, 06:28:23 AM »
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  • I remember having this discussion about transubstantiation in the seminary when we were studying miracles in apologetics.

    In the apologetic sense, a miracle must be an observable fact, a factum sensibile, and so in this sense, transubstantiation is not a miracle. You could say God is just respecting the law that He has established with transubstantiation, but in a true miracle He is acting beyond the established order of nature, the MOTS being a case in point!

    So I believe Fr Hewko had a valid concern in this matter, a concern shared at the time by the overwhelming majority of those in the Resistance, even the priests, and I believe the onus was on Bishop Williamson to explain just how God could work such a miracle without somehow giving the divine seal of approval to the NOM and the conciliar establishment.

    I was certainly shocked at the time, and I remember a disgruntled and discouraged fellow resistant, who has since returned to the SSPX, remonstrating "we don't need new ideas, we just need to continue in the same line of Mgr Lefebvre!". Most of us felt the same way, it didn't seem opportune. The priests who came our way went into damage control...

    But God's ways are not our ways. Bishop Williamson has, I believe, given a plausible explanation and so I withhold judgement. It came at a time when the Resistance was losing many souls to sedevacantism, and I think the good bishop was trying to impress upon us that, in spite of the fact that Tradition is the truth, nonetheless, the great majority of Catholics in the world today find themselves, often through no fault of their own, trapped in the conciliar mess, and God does not abandon His sheep. That is not to say of course that most souls in the conciliar mess are Catholic, that is altogether a different proposition!

    The fault of Frs Hewko and Pfeiffer was rather, in my opinion, the inordinate and unjustified nature of their attack. One wonders in hindsight if Fr Hewko would have taken it so far without Fr P's encouragement, and we all know now the alterior motives behind that. What a wonderful thing for Fr Hewko and his followers if he could find the humility to reconcile with Bishop Williamson.

    Good post, Plenus.

    My thoughts regarding the three bolded sections:

    1) There is no doubt there are different "species" of miracles (e.g., observable, unobservable), but in all cases/species, they "act beyond the established order of nature."  Transubstantiation is not observable, but that does not change the fact that it is metaphysically a true miracle, and God is performing it at the Novus Ordo.

    2) Simple: He manifests a eucharistic miracle within the context (i.e., Novus Ordo) where that dogma (i.e., the Real Presence) is most attacked, to protect and instill faith in the Real Presence among so many trapped in ignorance by modernist pastors.  But that such a miracle must, for some unknown reason, mean God approves the Novus Ordo is more of an arbitrary semtiment, devoid of doctrinal support, based purely on emotionalism. 

    The observation in #1 above shows the contradiction, or must we now say that "God can perform unobservable miracles at the Novus Ordo, but not observable miracles?  And why might that be?

    So my observation in the previous post stands: We will dictate arbitrarily to God that He can perform this kind of miracle, but not that kind of miracle?

    3) Yes, but don't hold your breath.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #25 on: December 13, 2022, 10:43:23 AM »
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  • So my observation in the previous post stands: We will dictate arbitrarily to God that He can perform this kind of miracle, but not that kind of miracle?

    I thought God had already given us our 'guide to validity' in form, matter, and intent.  If any of those is missing, then a sacrament is not valid.  Why reject Catholic teaching on sacramental validity?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #26 on: December 13, 2022, 09:36:54 PM »
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  • MOTS, it is the intention of the priest consecrating that is relevant to the validity of the sacrament/sacrifice, not the intention of the revolutionaries involved in the reform.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #27 on: December 13, 2022, 09:42:54 PM »
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  • I thought God had already given us our 'guide to validity' in form, matter, and intent.  If any of those is missing, then a sacrament is not valid.  Why reject Catholic teaching on sacramental validity?

    What are you babbling about form, matter, and intent for??

    I’m not sure why you reject all the ecuмenical councils, but you’re wrong to do so.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #28 on: December 13, 2022, 11:24:28 PM »
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  • MOTS, it is the intention of the priest consecrating that is relevant to the validity of the sacrament/sacrifice, not the intention of the revolutionaries involved in the reform.

    The Bastardo Service was purposely stripped of its Catholicity from the top down and from the inside out. 

    Pope Saint Paul VI's original definition of the Bastardo was: "The Lord's Supper, or Mass, is the sacred meeting or congregation of the people of God assembled, the priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord..."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #29 on: December 13, 2022, 11:31:49 PM »
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  • What are you babbling about form, matter, and intent for??

    I’m not sure why you reject all the ecuмenical councils, but you’re wrong to do so.

    'What are you babbling about' - you are pure gold, brother.  Top shelf.  But if you remember, I didn't say it - the Ottaviani Intervention said it.

    I never said anywhere that I reject all the ecuмenical councils.  (I think I see why you say you needed to take a break...)

    Cheers