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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)  (Read 10298 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« on: December 11, 2022, 09:05:27 PM »
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  • DCCCIV #804
    December 10, 2022
    QUESTIONS ENSUING – III
    How can the Archbishop’s heirs be quite so blind?
    Evil is good, to the liberal’s “open mind.”

    3 Excellency, following on the last few issues of these “Comments” I am somewhat confused. Was or was not the General Chapter of the Society of St Pius X in 2012 the work of traitors? If so, why be at all lenient with them? If not, why call their work a “disaster”?
    Any lack of clarity can be blamed on the confusion wrought by the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), where, as the murder of Duncan makes Macduff cry out (Macbeth, II, 3), “Confusion now hath made his masterpiece.” Let the Catechism try to clear up the confusion.
    For a sin to be mortally grave, three things are required: that the sin be in itself, objectively, grave enough to cause the spiritual death of the soul; secondly, that the sinner be aware that his act is mortally sinful; and thirdly that he give his full consent to committing the sinful act. What this means is that if somebody commits what is in fact a mortal sin without his knowing that it is, then the act is objectively sinful, but not subjectively, because of his ignorance. Such was the case of many Catholics after Vatican II.
    For at Vatican II a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church succeeded in persuading the Church’s leading churchmen to replace the true God-centred Faith with a false man-centred parody of that Faith. And these churchmen – two Popes and about 2,000 bishops – went on in turn to persuade a large majority of Catholic souls all over the world to adopt the new humanist religion, because these Popes and bishops seemed to be that Authority of which these souls knew that Christ had instituted it to know, preach and protect the Truth, i.e. His own unchanging truths of salvation. Therefore the ringleaders of Vatican II who knew exactly what they were doing to destroy the Church were supremely guilty, while any bishops, priests and laity beneath them who were duped – and that was the mass of them – were relatively innocent. As Archbishop Vigano says, he was at the time unable to believe that his colleagues could possibly have been wanting to destroy the Church. He believes it now, because confrontation with the immorality that always follows on corruption of Catholic doctrine opened his eyes to how Authority had betrayed Truth.
    Now the exact degree of guilt or innocence in each single soul that has taken part in that betrayal ever since, is known to God, but common sense is enough to tell that a large proportion of Catholics following the apostasy of Vatican II ever since have been more sinned against than sinning, and here is the common sense reason for ourselves to judge them leniently. The more the shepherds were guilty, the more the sheep have been innocent, because when they followed the representatives of Catholic Authority, they seriously believed that it was a sure source of that Truth which is absolutely necessary for them to save their souls.
    3b Yes, but the bad fruits following on the Council should have opened by now many more eyes than they have done. Many Catholics prefer the soft new religion. Leniency must have its limits!
    True, and here is where the objective sin of betrayal of the Faith comes in. The doctrine of the Conciliar religion is false, it corrupts morals, it is destroying the Church and sending countless souls to Hell. The Council itself was the final product of centuries of moral rot, ever growing, from the decadence of the Middle Ages onwards. This growth explains – without excusing – the blindness of the bishops voting at Vatican II, because what Archbishop Lefebvre then saw, they should all have been able to see. Instead, at least objectively, they then betrayed, and now the leaders of the Society that he built to resist the rot still want to put themselves under its ringleaders, more rotten than ever, e.g. Traditionis Custodes. Such creators of the Newsociety are traitors in their turn. Their Founder repudiated the Romans whom they love, and with whom they are today, reportedly, plotting to change the Statutes of the Society with which he gave it its structure. If the report is true, no wonder the Roman modernists insist on a new structure, open and no longer closed to appropriation by the traitors of Rome and of the Newsociety.
    Kyrie eleison.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #1 on: December 11, 2022, 09:32:16 PM »
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  • Venenum in cauda:

    "Their Founder repudiated the Romans whom they love, and with whom they are today, reportedly, plotting to change the Statutes of the Society with which he gave it its structure. If the report is true, no wonder the Roman modernists insist on a new structure, open and no longer closed to appropriation by the traitors of Rome and of the Newsociety."

    The prelature lives?

    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #2 on: December 12, 2022, 09:46:39 AM »
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  • Venenum in cauda:

    "Their Founder repudiated the Romans whom they love, and with whom they are today, reportedly, plotting to change the Statutes of the Society with which he gave it its structure. If the report is true, no wonder the Roman modernists insist on a new structure, open and no longer closed to appropriation by the traitors of Rome and of the Newsociety."

    The prelature lives?

    :popcorn:

    I saw that too was wondering.....what statutes are they trying to change? Maybe it is, as you say, having to do with a prelature. It might indeed have to do with reconciling with Rome without making it look as if they are reconciling, so as to prevent the alienation of some of the priests in the SSPX. Or they may think that they will be somewhat safe in a prelature situation, but the pope is usually in charge in a prelature situation, so that's a problem. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #3 on: December 12, 2022, 10:03:19 AM »
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  • So far, Fr. Pagliarani has done nothing to change the orientation that Bp. Fellay gave the SSPX. They belong, apparently, to the same party.

    I imagine that they are simply waiting for a new Pope to come to start new negotiations, since things seem to have hit a wall with Pope Francis.

    Remember how patient Freemansons and Jews are. They plan for decades, centuries ahead.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #4 on: December 12, 2022, 10:14:00 AM »
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  • I saw that too was wondering.....what statutes are they trying to change? Maybe it is, as you say, having to do with a prelature. It might indeed have to do with reconciling with Rome without making it look as if they are reconciling, so as to prevent the alienation of some of the priests in the SSPX. Or they may think that they will be somewhat safe in a prelature situation, but the pope is usually in charge in a prelature situation, so that's a problem.

    Its conceivable that Menzingen would request priests to turn in their copies of the Constitutions under the pretext that they need to be updated (e.g., to incorporate the decisions of the 2018 General Chapter, etc.), and although that would be a legitimate reason to change/update them (however idious those changes might be), it could also serve as a cover for making additional/unrelated modifications (i.e., reconstituting the SSPX as a personal prelature).

    If something like this really was in the works behind closed doors, then it would certainly explain the SSPX's reluctance/refusal to consecrate bishops (i.e., they don't want to blow their chances at a prelature under Bergoglio).

    The proof will be in the pudding.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #5 on: December 12, 2022, 10:15:16 AM »
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  • So far, Fr. Pagliarani has done nothing to change the orientation that Bp. Fellay gave the SSPX. They belong, apparently, to the same party.

    Which is why Fr. pagliarani defended +Fellay at the 2012 General Chapter, and then succeeded him at the 2018 General Chapter (and surrounded himself by two new "General Counselors:" +Fellay and Schmidberger).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Charity

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #6 on: December 12, 2022, 11:36:59 AM »
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  • Which is why Fr. pagliarani defended +Fellay at the 2012 General Chapter, and then succeeded him at the 2018 General Chapter (and surrounded himself by two new "General Counselors:" +Fellay and Schmidberger).
    https://angeluspress.org/products/time-bombs-vatican-ii

    Perhaps, we  can have another conference which could be titled Time Bombs/Clerics of the Society of St. Pius X


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #7 on: December 12, 2022, 02:36:35 PM »
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  • The questions a I would ask +Williamson

    1) Is SSPX still a viable organization in fighting modernism and advancing a return to Tradition?

    2) Have Fellay & Co. betrayed SSPX faithful partially or fully?

    3) Where does the bulk of money come to run the apostolate?
         From average donors attached to its chapels?
         From real estate and other business investments?
         From Jєωιѕн sources?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #8 on: December 12, 2022, 02:57:07 PM »
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  • The questions a I would ask +Williamson

    1) Is SSPX still a viable organization in fighting modernism and advancing a return to Tradition?

    2) Have Fellay & Co. betrayed SSPX faithful partially or fully?

    3) Where does the bulk of money come to run the apostolate?
        From average donors attached to its chapels?
        From real estate and other business investments?
        From Jєωιѕн sources?

    My answers would be:

    1) Greatly diminished, but not completely useless.  The SSPX can still be a stepping stone to the Resistance (i.e., pre-1992 SSPX).

    2) Can you please define "partial" and "full" betrayal?

    3) Legacies (e.g., Jaidhofer Foundation).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #9 on: December 12, 2022, 03:05:39 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure they bailed on the Statutes once already.  I seem to remember reading in Letters to the Rector that everyone was pretty happy when +Fellay was voted in as the Superior General, even though no bishop was supposed to run the Society according to the Statutes.  

    Maybe someone can look that up to verify.  I no longer have the books.

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #10 on: December 12, 2022, 03:18:58 PM »
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  • "For at Vatican II a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church succeeded in persuading the Church’s leading churchmen to replace the true God-centred Faith with a false man-centred parody of that Faith. And these churchmen – two Popes and about 2,000 bishops – went on in turn to persuade a large majority of Catholic souls all over the world to adopt the new humanist religion, because these Popes and bishops seemed to be that Authority..."

    So a canonized pope, who created a new mass that produces miracles, is the same pope who succeeded in leading a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church?

    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #11 on: December 12, 2022, 03:29:07 PM »
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  • "For at Vatican II a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church succeeded in persuading the Church’s leading churchmen to replace the true God-centred Faith with a false man-centred parody of that Faith. And these churchmen – two Popes and about 2,000 bishops – went on in turn to persuade a large majority of Catholic souls all over the world to adopt the new humanist religion, because these Popes and bishops seemed to be that Authority..."

    So a canonized pope, who created a new mass that produces miracles, is the same pope who succeeded in leading a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church?

    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Correct.  Would you like me to explain?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #12 on: December 12, 2022, 03:32:36 PM »
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  • Correct.  Would you like me to explain?

    If you can then why not?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #13 on: December 12, 2022, 03:47:02 PM »
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  • Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    For a sin to be mortally grave, three things are required: that the sin be in itself, objectively, grave enough to cause the spiritual death of the soul; secondly, that the sinner be aware that his act is mortally sinful; and thirdly that he give his full consent to committing the sinful act. What this means is that if somebody commits what is in fact a mortal sin without his knowing that it is, then the act is objectively sinful, but not subjectively, because of his ignorance. Such was the case of many Catholics after Vatican II.

    His Excellency is missing a piece.  Ignorance only excuses if it's inculpable.  Ignorance of Catholic doctrine, for instance, can never be an excuse for a "Pope" or for "Bishops" because they have a strict obligation in their duties of state to know Catholic doctrine.

    Take a layman who refuses to take the time to learn even the basics of the faith.  Let's say he thinks (due to his ignorance) that it's OK to receive Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin.  His ignorance does not excuse him from gave sin because this is a basic pinciple of faith that he was duty bound to know and to have learned, i.e. since his ignorance is culpable, he's guilty of the sin as if he had full knowledge.

    Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    Therefore the ringleaders of Vatican II who knew exactly what they were doing to destroy the Church were supremely guilty, while any bishops, priests and laity beneath them who were duped – and that was the mass of them – were relatively innocent.

    I take exception to the assertion that bishops could be innocently duped into accepting a false religion.  They were duty bound to know the Catholic faith and to reject the innovations.

    Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    Now the exact degree of guilt or innocence in each single soul that has taken part in that betrayal ever since, is known to God, but common sense is enough to tell that a large proportion of Catholics following the apostasy of Vatican II ever since have been more sinned against than sinning, and here is the common sense reason for ourselves to judge them leniently.

    Speculations regarding the subjective inculpability of those in the Conciliar Church have no bearing on the assessment regarding whether the Conciliar Church is Catholic.  Even the Church does not judge the internal forum, and the matter is irrelevant.  Either the Conciliar Church is manifestly / visibly / objectively the Catholic Church or it's not.  Either its "leadership" (V2 papal claimants) are manifestly Catholic Popes / Bishops or they are not.  Period.  Whether or not or to what extent they were / are culpable is not our concern, cannot be know by us with certainty, and is absolutely irrelevant where it comes to making assessments regarding the crisis.

    Unfortunately, His Excellency is sliding into a form of subjectivism or relativism here, and it's the same tendency whereby stated that it was potentially OK / permissible for someone to assist at the NOM.  This thinking is closely related to the principles enunciated by Bergoglio in Amoris Laetitia where he claims that something that is objectively evil can be OK given the "internal forum" dispositions of the one committing the actions.

    Is it possible that some ignoramus is not guilty of grave sin, given a certain amount of ignorance or confusion?  Certainly.  But that's not for anyone but God to decide.  Nor can a priest advise someone "in the internal forum" that adulterous cohabitation may be OK.  It's the priest's obligation to dispel any ignorace regarding the matter.

    Is it possible that some people are not guilty of sin for attending the NOM?  Of coursre.  But that's not for anyone but God to decide.  Nor can a priest (or bishop) advise someone that it may be Ok "in the internal forum" somehow.

    His Excellency's justification of assisting at the NOM and the principles behind Bergoglio's Amoris Laetitia are eerily similar.  And this is suprirsing given how THE central or core emphasis of Bishop Williamson's analysis of the entire crisis and the roots of the crisis rightly call out subjectivisim as the culprit.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
    « Reply #14 on: December 12, 2022, 03:47:19 PM »
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  • No, that's alright.  I understand it already.  But, on second thoughts, why not?  What do you have?

    If the Montinian Rite is capable of confecting a valid sacrament through the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation, as the Hewkonians/Pfeifferians admit, then why not some other Eucharistic miracle?

    Sedevacantists can escape this argument, since they generally believe the rite flatly invalid (although they still need to explain why, with the essential rite of both the TLM and the Montinian Rite being identical, a sacrament is produced in the former, but not the latter).

    But the Hewkonians uncritically repeat like a mantra, "If there's a miracle there, it means the rite is pleasing to God."

    It never occurs to them how gratuitous and stupid that is, because were it true that a miracle can only mean the rite is pleasing to God, transubstantiation itself being a miracle, they would be forced to conclude the Novis Ordo is pleasing to God! 

    Or even more absurdly, they would be forced to declare that a valid Satanic Mass -at which would be present the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation- is pleasing to God.

    But knowing +Lefebvre didn't declare the per se invalidity of that rite, they're stuck in arbitrarity: This miracle doesn't mean the rite is pleasing to God, but that miracle does!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."