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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)  (Read 10606 times)

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2022, 03:18:58 PM »
"For at Vatican II a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church succeeded in persuading the Church’s leading churchmen to replace the true God-centred Faith with a false man-centred parody of that Faith. And these churchmen – two Popes and about 2,000 bishops – went on in turn to persuade a large majority of Catholic souls all over the world to adopt the new humanist religion, because these Popes and bishops seemed to be that Authority..."

So a canonized pope, who created a new mass that produces miracles, is the same pope who succeeded in leading a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church?

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2022, 03:29:07 PM »
"For at Vatican II a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church succeeded in persuading the Church’s leading churchmen to replace the true God-centred Faith with a false man-centred parody of that Faith. And these churchmen – two Popes and about 2,000 bishops – went on in turn to persuade a large majority of Catholic souls all over the world to adopt the new humanist religion, because these Popes and bishops seemed to be that Authority..."

So a canonized pope, who created a new mass that produces miracles, is the same pope who succeeded in leading a diabolical plot to destroy the Catholic Church?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Correct.  Would you like me to explain?


Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2022, 03:32:36 PM »
Correct.  Would you like me to explain?

If you can then why not?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2022, 03:47:02 PM »
Bishop Williamson:
Quote
For a sin to be mortally grave, three things are required: that the sin be in itself, objectively, grave enough to cause the spiritual death of the soul; secondly, that the sinner be aware that his act is mortally sinful; and thirdly that he give his full consent to committing the sinful act. What this means is that if somebody commits what is in fact a mortal sin without his knowing that it is, then the act is objectively sinful, but not subjectively, because of his ignorance. Such was the case of many Catholics after Vatican II.

His Excellency is missing a piece.  Ignorance only excuses if it's inculpable.  Ignorance of Catholic doctrine, for instance, can never be an excuse for a "Pope" or for "Bishops" because they have a strict obligation in their duties of state to know Catholic doctrine.

Take a layman who refuses to take the time to learn even the basics of the faith.  Let's say he thinks (due to his ignorance) that it's OK to receive Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin.  His ignorance does not excuse him from gave sin because this is a basic pinciple of faith that he was duty bound to know and to have learned, i.e. since his ignorance is culpable, he's guilty of the sin as if he had full knowledge.

Bishop Williamson:
Quote
Therefore the ringleaders of Vatican II who knew exactly what they were doing to destroy the Church were supremely guilty, while any bishops, priests and laity beneath them who were duped – and that was the mass of them – were relatively innocent.

I take exception to the assertion that bishops could be innocently duped into accepting a false religion.  They were duty bound to know the Catholic faith and to reject the innovations.

Bishop Williamson:
Quote
Now the exact degree of guilt or innocence in each single soul that has taken part in that betrayal ever since, is known to God, but common sense is enough to tell that a large proportion of Catholics following the apostasy of Vatican II ever since have been more sinned against than sinning, and here is the common sense reason for ourselves to judge them leniently.

Speculations regarding the subjective inculpability of those in the Conciliar Church have no bearing on the assessment regarding whether the Conciliar Church is Catholic.  Even the Church does not judge the internal forum, and the matter is irrelevant.  Either the Conciliar Church is manifestly / visibly / objectively the Catholic Church or it's not.  Either its "leadership" (V2 papal claimants) are manifestly Catholic Popes / Bishops or they are not.  Period.  Whether or not or to what extent they were / are culpable is not our concern, cannot be know by us with certainty, and is absolutely irrelevant where it comes to making assessments regarding the crisis.

Unfortunately, His Excellency is sliding into a form of subjectivism or relativism here, and it's the same tendency whereby stated that it was potentially OK / permissible for someone to assist at the NOM.  This thinking is closely related to the principles enunciated by Bergoglio in Amoris Laetitia where he claims that something that is objectively evil can be OK given the "internal forum" dispositions of the one committing the actions.

Is it possible that some ignoramus is not guilty of grave sin, given a certain amount of ignorance or confusion?  Certainly.  But that's not for anyone but God to decide.  Nor can a priest advise someone "in the internal forum" that adulterous cohabitation may be OK.  It's the priest's obligation to dispel any ignorace regarding the matter.

Is it possible that some people are not guilty of sin for attending the NOM?  Of coursre.  But that's not for anyone but God to decide.  Nor can a priest (or bishop) advise someone that it may be Ok "in the internal forum" somehow.

His Excellency's justification of assisting at the NOM and the principles behind Bergoglio's Amoris Laetitia are eerily similar.  And this is suprirsing given how THE central or core emphasis of Bishop Williamson's analysis of the entire crisis and the roots of the crisis rightly call out subjectivisim as the culprit.

Re: Eleison Comments - Questions Ensuing III (no. 804)
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2022, 03:47:19 PM »
No, that's alright.  I understand it already.  But, on second thoughts, why not?  What do you have?

If the Montinian Rite is capable of confecting a valid sacrament through the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation, as the Hewkonians/Pfeifferians admit, then why not some other Eucharistic miracle?

Sedevacantists can escape this argument, since they generally believe the rite flatly invalid (although they still need to explain why, with the essential rite of both the TLM and the Montinian Rite being identical, a sacrament is produced in the former, but not the latter).

But the Hewkonians uncritically repeat like a mantra, "If there's a miracle there, it means the rite is pleasing to God."

It never occurs to them how gratuitous and stupid that is, because were it true that a miracle can only mean the rite is pleasing to God, transubstantiation itself being a miracle, they would be forced to conclude the Novis Ordo is pleasing to God! 

Or even more absurdly, they would be forced to declare that a valid Satanic Mass -at which would be present the Eucharistic miracle of transubstantiation- is pleasing to God.

But knowing +Lefebvre didn't declare the per se invalidity of that rite, they're stuck in arbitrarity: This miracle doesn't mean the rite is pleasing to God, but that miracle does!