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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)  (Read 548 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
« on: May 23, 2020, 09:58:52 AM »
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  • Number DCLXXI (671)
    May 23, 2020
    Men Lacking
    Will men be men again, not soft and silly?
    If not, they’ll have to suffer, willy-nilly!

    When Authority abandons Truth in the Catholic Church as it has been doing ever since Vatican II, then it is easier said than done to walk the fine line between heresy on the left and schism on the right. So it is not surprising if an unusually sharp remark like that of Archbishop Lefebvre quoted in the last two issues of these “Comments” (“Hoist the ladder . . . ”) arouses interest.
    One layman even doubted the authenticity of the remark – could the sweet Archbishop really have said such a thing? Oh yes, he did. The original words are a little less elegant than the polished quotation, but the substance is identical – “With that, all that’s left is to pull up the ladder. There’s nothing to be done with these people (the Conciliar Romans). What have we got in common with them? Nothing! It’s not possible. It’s not possible” (6 Sept. 1990). The 1990 audio tape reference is Audio – Retrec – PASCALE90 or SACERDOTALE90. (However, let anyone wishing to check the quotation for himself beware of “revised” collections of the Archbishop’s tapes, because any words of his strongly opposed, like these to the Conciliarists in Rome, may well have been cut out by “editors” of the pro-Rome Newsociety.)
    Another reader who reacted to the quotation is a priest, from the Novus Ordo, but now firmly established in a Newsociety Priory in Switzerland (without having been conditionally re-ordained, as best we know).
    He thinks that “things really look different today” because the present generation of officials in Rome are a different breed from those that the Archbishop was reacting to in the 1980’s, and the best of them want a genuine restoration of the Church. He concludes that to adopt the Archbishop’s attitude today leaves only two solutions – either the “Resistance” or sedevacantism.
    But, Father, while the present breed of Church leaders may be different men from the traitor-priests of the Archbishop’s time, who did all they could to destroy the true Church, have they understood (or read) Pascendi? And what use are sweet and well-meaning Church authorities to the Faith or to the Church or to the SSPX or to the “Resistance,” if they have not grasped that the problem is rubber minds which cannot even conceive of truth condemning error or of dogma condemning heresy? A rubber mind sympathetic to Tradition is basically no more use to Tradition than a rubber mind condemning Tradition. Nor is it true that things are “really different” from the Archbishop’s time. The sign that a priest has really understood the problem is when – at least figuratively – he wants to go down to Rome with a machine-gun and send all sweetie-pies to meet their Maker, as Putin would say. In brief, the “Resistance” must stay on the road, otherwise the road will be torn up to provide stones to cry out the Truth in place of the silent shepherds and their non-barking dogs (cf. Lk XIX, 40). The “Resistance” must not, may not, give way!
    Finally a good priest seeks to console us with the news from a Society Prior that the Newsociety Superior General told a meeting in February of all Newsociety Priors in France that discussions between the SSPX and Rome are at a standstill because the SSPX is still insisting on doctrine first – well done, Fr Pagliarani – while Rome insists on fixing first a practical agreement. But need Rome even be concerned? Need it not merely wait for the ripe fruit to fall into its lap? Bishop Tissier is now so unwell that reportedly a room is being hospitalised inside Écône for him to retire to. Only two SSPX bishops remain to look after its worldwide needs. So either the Superior General must submit to Rome’s terms for the consecration of further bishops, continuing his predecessor’s disastrous conciliating of Church leaders who, however sweet they are, have lost the Faith, as the Archbishop said. Or he must consecrate more bishops without the Pope’s permission, as the Archbishop did. But would the Newsociety still follow in the Archbishop’s heroic line, of defying the (at least) objective traitors in Rome? One may doubt it.
    Kyrie eleison.
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    Offline apollo

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #1 on: May 23, 2020, 10:09:02 AM »
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  • "the Newsociety Superior General told a meeting in February of all
    Newsociety Priors in France that discussions between the SSPX and
    Rome are at a standstill because the SSPX is still insisting on
    doctrine first – well done, Fr Pagliarani "
    .
    WOW !!!
    .
    Perhaps when you do a Rosary crusade for the "Protection of the Society",
    Our Lady gets rid of the bad superior general.
    .



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 10:28:36 AM »
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  • There seems to be a jumbling of ideas here:

    1) Last year, Fr. Pagliarani announced that because two years of doctrinal negotiations (not discussions!) had produced no results, everything urges the SSPX to seek to reopen negotiations!  And this time, Rome need not convert!

    That’s not putting doctrine first, Your Excellency.

    2) Then earlier this year, the SSPX announced their attempts to reopen negotiations had been rejected by Rome.

    Once again, this is not Fr. Pagliarani holding firm on doctrine, but rather, Fr. Pagliarani being impeded from a deal by Rome!

    3) Has Rome converted?  Then how is desiring to enter into doctrinal pluralism putting doctrine first?

    4) Rome will starve the SSPX into submission for want of bishops, rather than cut a less favorable deal for themselves at the negotiating table.  This is why things are at a standstill, not because Fr. Pagliarani (who chose to surround himself with Schmidberger and Fellay to preserve continuity of regime) is Lefebvrist.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 10:40:39 AM »
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  • 4) Rome will starve the SSPX into submission for want of bishops, rather than cut a less favorable deal for themselves at the negotiating table.  This is why things are at a standstill, not because Fr. Pagliarani (who chose to surround himself with Schmidberger and Fellay to preserve continuity of regime) is Lefebvrist.

    I agree.

    Archbishop Lefebvre said, regarding his consecration of the four bishops, that he believed that Rome didn't provide him with the bishop that they had promised because they were waiting for him to die. And in fact, he only lived for another two-and-a-half years after the consecrations of the four.

    Modernist Rome tends to take the long view.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 10:54:22 AM »
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  • There seems to be a jumbling of ideas here:

    1) Last year, Fr. Pagliarani announced that because two years of doctrinal negotiations (not discussions!) had produced no results, everything urges the SSPX to seek to reopen negotiations!  And this time, Rome need not convert!

    That’s not putting doctrine first, Your Excellency.

    2) Then earlier this year, the SSPX announced their attempts to reopen negotiations had been rejected by Rome.

    Once again, this is not Fr. Pagliarani holding firm on doctrine, but rather, Fr. Pagliarani being impeded from a deal by Rome!

    3) Has Rome converted?  Then how is desiring to enter into doctrinal pluralism putting doctrine first?

    4) Rome will starve the SSPX into submission for want of bishops, rather than cut a less favorable deal for themselves at the negotiating table.  This is why things are at a standstill, not because Fr. Pagliarani (who chose to surround himself with Schmidberger and Fellay to preserve continuity of regime) is Lefebvrist.
    .
    Thanks Sean, for a more accurate picture.
    This makes a lot more sense, based on the priests Pagliarani has surrounded himself with
    and his past support of Bp. Fellay.  I have no idea why Bp. Williamson is seeing a new hope.
    .


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 12:54:24 PM »
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  • Let the Resistance summarize in two or three simple theological propositions the Truths they claim that Rome needs to accept that it does not accept. Can it do this? Everything the Resistance claims to believe, the Society also believes and defends. The Kingship of Christ, the immutability of dogma, that Holy Mass is a Propitiatory Sacrifice, or anything else that may be denied in the modern Church. But the difference is that the Society knows that there is no precedent in Tradition itself, nor even in Archbishop Lefebvre's thoughts and words over a long period of time, for completely cutting off all contact with the Roman Authorities. In the meanwhile, the SSPX continues its work. If the path for doctrinal discussions opens up again, the Society will take it. It's a good opportunity to influence mainstream Churchmen with the full Gospel of Christ and His Church. 

    "Here is why I have always thought that I had to go to Rome, that I had to write, that I had to visit these cardinals in order that they should not say that we are doing nothing or that we no longer recognize them or that we wish to have no contact with them. They cannot say that I have not done everything in my power to try to stay in contact with them. However, I think what counts much more are the facts, than the words or writings, even for Rome. What are the facts which count for us? The seminaries! To make priests! To make traditional priests, priests according to Tradition, to make good and holy priests in our seminaries. That is the work we must carry on with and the work which counts in Rome." https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 01:09:38 PM »
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  • Let the Resistance summarize in two or three simple theological propositions the Truths they claim that Rome needs to accept that it does not accept. Can it do this? Everything the Resistance claims to believe, the Society also believes and defends. The Kingship of Christ, the immutability of dogma, that Holy Mass is a Propitiatory Sacrifice, or anything else that may be denied in the modern Church. But the difference is that the Society knows that there is no precedent in Tradition itself, nor even in Archbishop Lefebvre's thoughts and words over a long period of time, for completely cutting off all contact with the Roman Authorities. In the meanwhile, the SSPX continues its work. If the path for doctrinal discussions opens up again, the Society will take it. It's a good opportunity to influence mainstream Churchmen with the full Gospel of Christ and His Church.

    "Here is why I have always thought that I had to go to Rome, that I had to write, that I had to visit these cardinals in order that they should not say that we are doing nothing or that we no longer recognize them or that we wish to have no contact with them. They cannot say that I have not done everything in my power to try to stay in contact with them. However, I think what counts much more are the facts, than the words or writings, even for Rome. What are the facts which count for us? The seminaries! To make priests! To make traditional priests, priests according to Tradition, to make good and holy priests in our seminaries. That is the work we must carry on with and the work which counts in Rome." https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Conference_at_Long_Island.htm

    “‘Cuz for a limited time only, glamour shots by Deb are only $9.99”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 01:14:52 PM »
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  • “‘Cuz for a limited time only, glamour shots by Deb are only $9.99”
    "Let the Resistance summarize in two or three simple theological propositions the Truths they claim that Rome needs to accept that it does not accept." Can you do this?

    Also, does this statement of +ABL describe the attitude of the Resistance or the Society: "I had to visit these cardinals in order that they should not say that we are doing nothing or that we no longer recognize them or that we wish to have no contact with them. They cannot say that I have not done everything in my power to try to stay in contact with them."
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 01:35:32 PM »
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  • "Let the Resistance summarize in two or three simple theological propositions the Truths they claim that Rome needs to accept that it does not accept." Can you do this?

    Also, does this statement of +ABL describe the attitude of the Resistance or the Society: "I had to visit these cardinals in order that they should not say that we are doing nothing or that we no longer recognize them or that we wish to have no contact with them. They cannot say that I have not done everything in my power to try to stay in contact with them."
    “‘Cuz for a limited time only, glamour shots by Deb are only $9.99”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 04:02:36 PM »
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  • “‘Cuz for a limited time only, glamour shots by Deb are only $9.99”
    That is actual a good deal, as Deb usually charges $29.99 ;)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Men Lacking (no. 671)
    « Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 04:16:39 PM »
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  • Xavier, Deb wrote multiple books and made websites about this in the last 50 years.  New-rome ignored her, so she got bored and switched to glamour shots.  Much better use of her time...and a deal at $9.99!