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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Lefebvre’s Wisdom – I (736)  (Read 503 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Eleison Comments - Lefebvre’s Wisdom – I (736)
« on: August 23, 2021, 07:03:50 AM »
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  • Lefebvre we neither worship nor adore,
    But God we thank for this great man of war!


    And what do these “Comments” have to say about Pope Francis’ latest smashing scandal, namely his Motu Proprio “Traditionis Custodes” in which he does all he can to extinguish the age-old Traditional rite of Mass in Latin, and to make sure that it will disappear for ever from celebrations of Mass? First and foremost these “Comments” would give glory to God for having given us as model, to guide us through this end of world crisis of the Church, Archbishop Lefebvre. He ended his days supposedly “excommunicated” by the mainstream churchmen. Nor has he been faithfully followed by the leading churchmen of the Society of St Pius X, which he himself formed. But the historic record of what he did and said is there, and its wisdom for the Church’s future becomes more clear with each day that passes.

    That record tells us exactly how he would have reacted to Traditionis Custodes. On the one hand he would have once more wholly rejected the false doctrine of Vatican II, which is behind the Novus Ordo Mass and which to this day strives to abolish all trace of the old Tridentine rite of Mass which has proved since 1969 to be the indestructible competitor of Pope Paul’s New Mass, risking to live on long after the New Mass is in the dustbins of history. On the other hand even with the agonising problem for Catholics set by Popes fighting against Catholic Tradition more bitterly than ever, like Francis in this Motu Proprio, it seems highly unlikely that the Archbishop would have declared that Pope Francis was not Pope. Rather, for the sake of the Church’s structure he would have insisted on respect and courtesy towards all the apparent Popes of Vatican II, leaving to the official Church alone in a more tranquil future time to decide what status to attribute to these Vicars of Christ who had so little understanding of Catholic Tradition.

    This balance of the Archbishop between condemning the Conciliar Popes’ doctrine but respecting their office has come to be known as “Recognise and Resist” – recognise their office, resist their doctrine. But as a policy for Catholics to follow, it comes into heavy criticism from both sides. Liberals will say, if you rightly recognise the office, then you have no right to resist its commands. Anti-liberal “sedevacantists” will turn that position around, saying, if you rightly resist the office’s false commands, then you cannot still be recognising the office issuing those commands, i.e. you cannot both recognise and resist, it must be one or the other. No, said the Archbishop, I reject the teacher’s teaching but not necessarily his office. Catholic Popes hating Tradition are a mystery for a future age of the Church to solve, if it will and can. And in this position the Archbishop has been followed ever since by many Catholics, not because of his official authority of which he had little to none, but because, confronted by the same problems in the Church, they had by themselves come to the same conclusions as he had, and therefore followed him, thus making him the trail-blazer of balance and sanity in the Church’s on-going crisis.

    And so what was it that enabled the Archbishop to keep his balance and serenity when in the wake of the Council so many believing Catholics either lost their faith or despaired of the Church? Undoubtedly it was his unshakable faith in a God and a Truth both far above all human changes or influences or politics or whatever, a God and a Truth enshrined in Catholic Tradition for the benefit of humans, but not in any intrinsic way subject to humans or dependent on humans. Here are the heights on which he lived in spirit and from which he descended into daily life, neither admitting undue change in the things of God, nor demanding too much perfection in the things of men. Liberals are mad to be wanting to adapt God’s one true Church to our age of godlessness, while Catholics are mistaken if they doubt God’s Providence in His management of His Church.

    So Pope Francis is mad, but Jesus Christ is with His Church until world’s end. He said so Himself – Mt. XXVIII, 20.
    Kyrie eleison.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Lefebvre’s Wisdom – I (736)
    « Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 09:21:23 AM »
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  • No, said the Archbishop, I reject the teacher’s teaching but not necessarily his office. Catholic Popes hating Tradition are a mystery for a future age of the Church to solve, if it will and can.

    What, may I ask, is the point of the Papacy? If it doesn’t stand for unity, teaching & preserving the faith, and authority then what is the point of having a Pope? It’s more trouble than it’s worth. Catholic theologians never envisioned such a possibility as when the Pope becomes a mere worthless figurehead like the emperor of Japan today.

    I’m sorry, but this line of thinking necessitates Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. If determining what Tradition is, how it is to be understood, and it’s application falls into the purview of individual bishops, priests, and theologians then Catholicism is fake, false, and phony.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Lefebvre’s Wisdom – I (736)
    « Reply #2 on: August 23, 2021, 12:49:38 PM »
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  • What, may I ask, is the point of the Papacy? If it doesn’t stand for unity, teaching & preserving the faith, and authority then what is the point of having a Pope? It’s more trouble than it’s worth. Catholic theologians never envisioned such a possibility as when the Pope becomes a mere worthless figurehead like the emperor of Japan today.

    I’m sorry, but this line of thinking necessitates Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. If determining what Tradition is, how it is to be understood, and it’s application falls into the purview of individual bishops, priests, and theologians then Catholicism is fake, false, and phony.

    The Pope (i.e., Benedict XVI) is the not the problem. Bergoglio, the usurper, the destroyer, the idol-shepherd is the problem. Don't lose the Faith, what is happening in front of our eyes is described in Zacharias 11:

    Quote
    15 And the Lord said to me: Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.  16 For behold I will raise up a shepherd in the land, who shall not visit what is forsaken, nor seek what is scattered, nor heal what is broken, nor nourish that which standeth, and he shall eat the flesh of the fat ones, and break their hoofs.

    17 O shepherd, and idol, that forsaketh the flock: the sword upon his arm and upon his right eye: his arm shall quite wither away, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Lefebvre’s Wisdom – I (736)
    « Reply #3 on: August 23, 2021, 03:56:46 PM »
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  • Lefebvre we neither worship nor adore,
    But God we thank for this great man of war!


    And what do these “Comments” have to say about Pope Francis’ latest smashing scandal, namely his Motu Proprio “Traditionis Custodes” in which he does all he can to extinguish the age-old Traditional rite of Mass in Latin, and to make sure that it will disappear for ever from celebrations of Mass? First and foremost these “Comments” would give glory to God for having given us as model, to guide us through this end of world crisis of the Church, Archbishop Lefebvre. He ended his days supposedly “excommunicated” by the mainstream churchmen. Nor has he been faithfully followed by the leading churchmen of the Society of St Pius X, which he himself formed. But the historic record of what he did and said is there, and its wisdom for the Church’s future becomes more clear with each day that passes.

    That record tells us exactly how he would have reacted to Traditionis Custodes. On the one hand he would have once more wholly rejected the false doctrine of Vatican II, which is behind the Novus Ordo Mass and which to this day strives to abolish all trace of the old Tridentine rite of Mass which has proved since 1969 to be the indestructible competitor of Pope Paul’s New Mass, risking to live on long after the New Mass is in the dustbins of history. On the other hand even with the agonising problem for Catholics set by Popes fighting against Catholic Tradition more bitterly than ever, like Francis in this Motu Proprio, it seems highly unlikely that the Archbishop would have declared that Pope Francis was not Pope. Rather, for the sake of the Church’s structure he would have insisted on respect and courtesy towards all the apparent Popes of Vatican II, leaving to the official Church alone in a more tranquil future time to decide what status to attribute to these Vicars of Christ who had so little understanding of Catholic Tradition.

    This balance of the Archbishop between condemning the Conciliar Popes’ doctrine but respecting their office has come to be known as “Recognise and Resist” – recognise their office, resist their doctrine. But as a policy for Catholics to follow, it comes into heavy criticism from both sides. Liberals will say, if you rightly recognise the office, then you have no right to resist its commands. Anti-liberal “sedevacantists” will turn that position around, saying, if you rightly resist the office’s false commands, then you cannot still be recognising the office issuing those commands, i.e. you cannot both recognise and resist, it must be one or the other. No, said the Archbishop, I reject the teacher’s teaching but not necessarily his office. Catholic Popes hating Tradition are a mystery for a future age of the Church to solve, if it will and can. And in this position the Archbishop has been followed ever since by many Catholics, not because of his official authority of which he had little to none, but because, confronted by the same problems in the Church, they had by themselves come to the same conclusions as he had, and therefore followed him, thus making him the trail-blazer of balance and sanity in the Church’s on-going crisis.

    And so what was it that enabled the Archbishop to keep his balance and serenity when in the wake of the Council so many believing Catholics either lost their faith or despaired of the Church? Undoubtedly it was his unshakable faith in a God and a Truth both far above all human changes or influences or politics or whatever, a God and a Truth enshrined in Catholic Tradition for the benefit of humans, but not in any intrinsic way subject to humans or dependent on humans. Here are the heights on which he lived in spirit and from which he descended into daily life, neither admitting undue change in the things of God, nor demanding too much perfection in the things of men. Liberals are mad to be wanting to adapt God’s one true Church to our age of godlessness, while Catholics are mistaken if they doubt God’s Providence in His management of His Church.

    So Pope Francis is mad, but Jesus Christ is with His Church until world’s end. He said so Himself – Mt. XXVIII, 20.
    Kyrie eleison.

    A very good E.C.

    Quote:

    "So Pope Francis is mad, but Jesus Christ is with His Church until the world's end. He said so Himself - Mt. XXVIII, 20."

    Well said!
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29