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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)  (Read 600 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
« on: March 25, 2024, 12:04:44 AM »
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  • LATIN and GREEK

    Eleison Comments Issue DCCCLXXI (871)
    March 23, 2024

    Good education is not far to seek –
    That which is tried and tested? – Latin and Greek.

    The value of the pre-Christian classics in Catholic education is a disputed question. For instance one famous anti-liberal Catholic of the 19th century, Monsignor Gaume, argued that the classic authors in Latin and Greek are too impure to be usable in Catholic schools, but that would seem to be an exaggeration. For purposes of education at the natural level there is too much real value in the Latin and Greek classics for them to be absolutely spurned. The Greek and Latin classics are the products of intelligent and serious men who have thought a good deal about life and who present, by the gift of God, much truth concerning life and human nature. True, the impurities are scattered all around but they are not the centrepiece, rather a sideshow. An outstanding example would be the Aeneid of Virgil which maintains such a high moral level, that it was consulted widely at the height of the Middle Ages for its lofty vision of life.

    In brief, the Christian society is supernaturally superior to the society of the ancient classics, but that old classic society is far superior naturally to degenerate modern society. From the standpoint of education, it is especially easy to argue for the all-round superiority of Latin and Greek, as opposed to an education in modern languages or the modern sciences. A good education will provide both discipline for the youngsters’ hearts and minds, and culture for their souls, and history for their lives. Latin and Greek alone provide all three, Latin providing the practice of the basics, and Greek their theory.

    DISCIPLINE: Latin is an extremely logical language, requiring much thought to disentangle: subject, verb, object, and so on. There is discipline also in learning Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Computing and Technology, etc., but everything there is material, determined, inhuman, precisely and proudly abstracting from anything spiritual, free or human. And what the youngsters can no longer longer learn in school, or from their grandparents or even parents, they have to pick up in the gutter, from Hollywood or the Internet or their smartphone, etc. Lucky if they have just one sports coach who is human! In the spiritual wasteland of a “scientific” education, how much influence for good such a mere coach can have.

    CULTURE: When it comes to educating and forming the hearts and souls of the youngsters (hearts and souls they do have, with imperious needs), then the “sciences” enumerated above are simply non-starters, while the modern languages are a second best, because all modernity since the “Reformation” and its culture are more or less stained with apostasy, with war on God. Of course Latin and Greek culture are not free of original sin, but they are uniquely free of the Reformation and all its consequences, presenting a simpler and purer vision of the basics of human nature and life. A great help for youngsters to know.

    HISTORY: Latin and Greek culture are embedded in the history of all Western civilisation as it is now too late for the culture of any other language to be. Latin and Greek were two of the three languages nailed to the Cross of Our Lord. Greek was the language of the New Testament. Rome was soon the centre of the Church. “History is the master of life” is a wise old proverb, and to learn Latin and Greek is necessarily to learn some Greek and Roman history. In 1984 George Orwell wrote, “Who controls the past, controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.” So whoever controls our schools today, controls our future. These people are presently hard at work, discounting Latin and Greek, making history start with World War II, which is much more easily manipulated than ancient history. What does that tell us about modern education? It is no good. It is shaping sheep for the Antichrist.

    Kyrie eleison
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #1 on: March 25, 2024, 06:57:02 AM »
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  • When the kids asked why we were homeschooling Latin and Greek, I answered: (1) Church languages, adding that "dead" languages have no linguistic drift, and (2) "It's a useful tool for organizing a youngster's mind."


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #2 on: March 25, 2024, 11:39:22 AM »
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  • When I taught "Intro. to Philosophy" (several thousand students over the years; I stopped teaching in 2017), invariably a student would ask, "Mr. Shepherd, why did my high school not offer Latin?  Latin seems so rich."  I could only answer, "Well, Latin has been ignored in the Catholic Church since the 1960's, and likewise it has been ignored in the high schools and colleges almost universally."  

    As for my high school Alma Mater, St. Xavier (Novus Ordo), it stopped offering Latin in the late 90's, and instead offers Chinese.  I think there are only two high schools which still offer Latin in the whole Louisville area. And the Novus Ordo high schools in town do not offer Latin. Louisville is the largest city in Ky. and entertains a population of 500K-one million.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org.

    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #3 on: March 25, 2024, 12:08:26 PM »
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  • When I taught "Intro. to Philosophy" (several thousand students over the years; I stopped teaching in 2017), invariably a student would ask, "Mr. Shepherd, why did my high school not offer Latin?  Latin seems so rich."  I could only answer, "Well, Latin has been ignored in the Catholic Church since the 1960's, and likewise it has been ignored in the high schools and colleges almost universally." 

    As for my high school Alma Mater, St. Xavier (Novus Ordo), it stopped offering Latin in the late 90's, and instead offers Chinese.  I think there are only two high schools which still offer Latin in the whole Louisville area. And the Novus Ordo high schools in town do not offer Latin. Louisville is the largest city in Ky. and entertains a population of 500K-one million. 

    I have known several non-Catholic students who took Latin as their foreign language requirement in university.  Sadly, I have never formally studied Latin in a high school or college setting, I am largely self-taught.  It is still on my "bucket list" to study Latin using Rosetta Stone (which I have, but have never used).

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #4 on: March 25, 2024, 05:47:34 PM »
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  • I have known several non-Catholic students who took Latin as their foreign language requirement in university.  Sadly, I have never formally studied Latin in a high school or college setting, I am largely self-taught.  It is still on my "bucket list" to study Latin using Rosetta Stone (which I have, but have never used).
    I am also looking to 'self' learn latin after Lent. I found these 2 channels have a lot of material on Latin, the 2nd has a lot of videos spoken in Latin so is useful for input.

    https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQQL5IeNgck2Ytcf9Sz3OSTVFe7MOM7u9&si=jQj-uh_SzHG_SxWc

    https://youtube.com/@ScorpioMartianus/featured


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #5 on: March 25, 2024, 06:03:06 PM »
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  • There's a very large collection of Latin works in audio format here (all free), including some Latin textbooks ...
    https://librivox.org/search?primary_key=39&search_category=language&search_page=1&search_form=get_results

    IMO by far the best method for learning Latin fluently is to listen to or read the Sacred Scriptures in Latin (the Vulgate).  Why?  It's because you're already so familiar with the stories that your mind can very often easily translate words from their context.  You have to obviously have a decent grounding in the basics of "Latin I" to benefit from it, but once you have a basic mastery of the grammar, this will build fluency very quickly for the reasons mentioned.

    Unfortunately, there's no complete Vulgate there, but someone is working on the Clementine Vulgate and has made it through a good part of the Old Testament.
    https://forum.librivox.org/viewtopic.php?p=1627016#p1627016


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #6 on: March 25, 2024, 06:21:48 PM »
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  • There's a very large collection of Latin works in audio format here (all free), including some Latin textbooks ...
    https://librivox.org/search?primary_key=39&search_category=language&search_page=1&search_form=get_results

    IMO by far the best method for learning Latin fluently is to listen to or read the Sacred Scriptures in Latin (the Vulgate).  Why?  It's because you're already so familiar with the stories that your mind can very often easily translate words from their context.  You have to obviously have a decent grounding in the basics of "Latin I" to benefit from it, but once you have a basic mastery of the grammar, this will build fluency very quickly for the reasons mentioned.

    Unfortunately, there's no complete Vulgate there, but someone is working on the Clementine Vulgate and has made it through a good part of the Old Testament.
    https://forum.librivox.org/viewtopic.php?p=1627016#p1627016
    Pretty sure
    https://www.drbo.org/lvb/index.htm

    Has the complete Vulgate

    I am really off this morning... I just realised you meant Vulgate AUDIO.

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #7 on: March 25, 2024, 09:03:20 PM »
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  • Try reading the Roman Martyrology in Latin with the English translation beside it. I think it covers a lot of bases besides learning a lot of Latin--it's real history, not fiction, devotional, very repetitive with words and phrases, and action packed. Boys, especially, would find it exciting with all the courage, daring and blood shed. A great way to break away, periodically, from the tedious grammar and memorization. But first, the hard part, you gotta find the books.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Latin and Greek (no. 871)
    « Reply #8 on: March 25, 2024, 09:18:46 PM »
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  • I have known several non-Catholic students who took Latin as their foreign language requirement in university.  Sadly, I have never formally studied Latin in a high school or college setting, I am largely self-taught.  It is still on my "bucket list" to study Latin using Rosetta Stone (which I have, but have never used).
    Rosetta Stone uses "natural language acquisition," but natural language acquisition is virtually lost by about age 7. I think that method is a waste of time for adults. Adults should stick with more traditional language didactics.

    Because it is a complete program, I think ["classical," non-Catholic] Wheelock's Latin is the best Latin series. A close second is the [Catholic] Henle's Latin.