Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on November 20, 2017, 04:30:32 PM

Title: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Matthew on November 20, 2017, 04:30:32 PM
How Discern? – I
When all men mean well, how know good from bad?
By watching where fruits truly good are had.

A young man with a good mind is asking a good question about the crisis in the Church, and another good question about the crisis in the Society of St Pius X. Here is how Joseph frames his first question:—
On the one hand the Conciliar crisis was one is a series of crises afflicting the Church, such as Protestantism, Liberalism, and Revolutions, with two World Wars, and therefore errors made their way at the Council which were clearly condemned by the Church before Vatican II. And after the Council its novelties were applauded by classical enemies of the Church, such as Freemasons and Socialists, while the Church’s missionary spirit has clearly been extinguished. On the other hand the ideas of the Council are the work of highly intelligent and supposedly Catholic churchmen, and one cannot all the time say that the Pope is not Pope, or that the majority of modernist Bishops are invalidly consecrated. Therefore can one say that the Conciliar crisis involves shadowed areas which still make it difficult to see clear? And if we cannot arrive at definite conclusions, can we be sure we are holding onto the true Faith?
The best reply comes from Our Lord Himself, speaking in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. VII, 15–20) – “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Obviously Our Lord knew that there would be constant attacks on His Church with repeated attempts of the Devil to sow confusion in His followers’ minds. The confusion that has followed on Vatican II is not different in kind from previous crises in Church history, even if by the defection of the churchmen at Vatican II the confusion today is unprecedented in degree – never before have the mass of Catholic shepherds been so lost, nor therefore the Catholic sheep.
Nevertheless, to find one’s way out of the confusion, the same infallible principle still applies: actions speak louder than words, and the f ruits of a man’s actions are the surest guide to who he is and what he really intends. Especially in the case of modernism a man can be deceiving himself as to what he wants or intends, because nobody is so deeply detached from reality as a modernist. “The end of the world will be characterised by men doing evil while thinking they are doing good,” said Fr Faber in mid-19th century. In the 21st century we are at the wrong end of this centuries-long process of mankind deceiving itself as it has turned away from God. Then would God be leaving His sheep defenceless against such unprecedented wolves in sheep’s clothing as modernists are? No, because to judge by the fruits is something that anybody can do, with a minimum of common sense and upright will.
Therefore, Joseph, you observe that today’s Church authorities are highly intelligent men and supposedly Catholic, and you quite reasonably assume that they are the valid authorities of the Chur ch, because even if you know that their fruits are so little Catholic as to make many a Catholic dispute that validity, notwithstanding who else is there who is authorised to speak and act for the Universal Church? But at the same time you observe that their ideas are in line with grave anti-Catholic errors from the past, and that they are now applauded by classic enemies of the Church, such as Freemasons. Arguments on one side and on the other. Doubts and shadows. How do you resolve the confusion?
Answer, by your own further observation that the missionary spirit has disappeared from the Church since Vatican II. Here are the fruits. The Council preached ecuмenism ( Unitatis Redintegratio ), religious liberty ( Dignitatis Humanae ) and the relative acceptability of false religions such as Hinduism, Islam and Judaism ( Nostra Aetate ) – how could the Catholic missionary spirit not collapse after the Council? And have not countless monasteries, seminaries, convents, dioceses and parishes also emptied out and closed down since Vatican II? Did new ones open anywhere? Yes, under the leadership of the one Catholic bishop worldwide who from the beginning repudiated openly the Council and all its works, Archbishop Lefebvre. Here were the selfsame fruits of the selfsame Catholic principles, faithfully applied in defiance of Vatican II. Joseph, you need look no further.

Kyrie eleison.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: JPaul on November 20, 2017, 05:45:02 PM
We have always been at war with Eurasia.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Incredulous on November 21, 2017, 07:52:21 AM
But what of these fruits?

(http://stas.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/news_big/public/news/23.jpg?itok=rFsQs4zU)
17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

Nea.
I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.

Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: JPaul on November 21, 2017, 09:22:12 AM
But what of these fruits?

(http://stas.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/news_big/public/news/23.jpg?itok=rFsQs4zU)
17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

Nea.
I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.
Ah yes, more soldiers to fulfill the visionaries predictions of a Divine role to save the Church.

Quote
When all men mean well, how know good from bad?
By watching where fruits truly good are had.
As a premise for discernment, presuming that all men are of good will is illogical.

As to the council,
Quote
Yes, under the leadership of the one Catholic bishop worldwide who from the beginning repudiated openly the Council and all its works, Archbishop Lefebvre.
Sorry, this is not a true or accurate statement. Antonio Casrto Myer was the one Bishop who repudiated the council and its issue. He did not sign any of the docuмents,(that is repudiation from the beginning).
He condemned both the council and the New Mass.
On the other hand the Archbishop signed all of the docuмents, and his condemnation was not complete, but selective and conditional with both the council and the New Mass as it remains with his progeny today.
To embellish his actions needlessly diminishes his legacy of  his good efforts on the Church's behalf.

The visible fruits which are manifest today from the men of good will are are discensions, distrust, sectarianism, worldliness, disunity, confusion, ambiguity, compromise, and ineffectiveness against the Satanic invasion of the Church.

A rich harvest indeed.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Kazimierz on November 21, 2017, 11:29:05 AM
But what of these fruits?

(http://stas.org/sites/sspx/files/styles/news_big/public/news/23.jpg?itok=rFsQs4zU)
17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

Nea.
I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.
To extend the metaphor of fruits, trees, leaves and poison...indeed the leaves are green, for now poison ivy grows where once something wholesome did; Athelas/Kingsfoil, that is, this world's version thereof.
And yes, who needs fictional zombies when there are plenty of the real things trapezing along the streets.
Any word about our Swiss choco ration this week? ;D
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: hollingsworth on November 21, 2017, 01:05:40 PM

Quote
J Paul: On the other hand the Archbishop signed all of the docuмents, and his condemnation was not complete, but selective and conditional with both the council and the New Mass as it remains with his progeny today. To embellish his actions needlessly diminishes his legacy of  his good efforts on the Church's behalf.


Sir, you are 100% spot on.  How right you are!  ABL's waffling helps explain the deplorable situation, as we find it today in the SSPX.  The purblind followers of Fellay are the unfortunate legatees of a mixed Lefebvrian message, IMO.  Yet Lefebvrism, even in its halcyon days, could never have been the ultimate path to the Church's eventual restortion.  
Our Lady made the solution quite clear to Sr. Lucy 60 years ago, and it did not necessarily include the restoration of the True Mass and the traditional priesthood. 
She informed Sr. Lucy that there are two "last remedies."  If these two "last remedies" are not observed and strictly adhered to, there remain no others.  They are basically two 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and 2)the Holy Rosary.  So emphatic was Our Lady that She warned quite solemnly in the words of Fr. Augustin Fuentes:
"If you despise and repulse this ultimate means, (i.e. the two last remedies), we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Spirit...."
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: klasG4e on November 21, 2017, 07:48:51 PM

It may be of some interest to recall a certain passage taken from Archbishop Lefebvre's Consecration sermon on 30 June 1988: "Just recently, the priest who takes care of the priory of Bogota, Colombia, brought me a book concerning the apparition of Our Lady of "Buon Suceso," - of "Good Fortune," to whom a large church in Quito, Ecuador, was dedicated. They were received by a nun shortly after the Council of Trent, so you see, quite a few centuries ago. This apparition is thoroughly recognized by Rome and the ecclesiastical authorities; a magnificent church was built for the Blessed Virgin Mary wherein the faithful of Ecuador venerate with great devotion a picture of Our Lady, whose face was made miraculously. The artist was in the process of painting it when he found the face of the Holy Virgin miraculously formed. And Our Lady prophesied for the twentieth century, saying explicitly that during the nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century, errors would become more and more widespread in Holy Church, placing the Church in a catastrophic situation. Morals would become corrupt and the Faith would disappear. It seems impossible not to see it happening today.
I excuse myself for continuing this account of the apparition but she speaks of a prelate who will absolutely oppose this wave of apostasy and impiety - saving the priesthood by forming good priests. I do not say that prophecy refers to me. You may draw your own conclusions. I was stupefied when reading these lines but I cannot deny them, since they are recorded and deposited in the archives of this apparition.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: St Ignatius on November 21, 2017, 08:36:25 PM
It may be of some interest to recall a certain passage taken from Archbishop Lefebvre's Consecration sermon on 30 June 1988: "Just recently, the priest who takes care of the priory of Bogota, Colombia, brought me a book concerning the apparition of Our Lady of "Buon Suceso," - of "Good Fortune," to whom a large church in Quito, Ecuador, was dedicated. They were received by a nun shortly after the Council of Trent, so you see, quite a few centuries ago. This apparition is thoroughly recognized by Rome and the ecclesiastical authorities; a magnificent church was built for the Blessed Virgin Mary wherein the faithful of Ecuador venerate with great devotion a picture of Our Lady, whose face was made miraculously. The artist was in the process of painting it when he found the face of the Holy Virgin miraculously formed. And Our Lady prophesied for the twentieth century, saying explicitly that during the nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century, errors would become more and more widespread in Holy Church, placing the Church in a catastrophic situation. Morals would become corrupt and the Faith would disappear. It seems impossible not to see it happening today.
I excuse myself for continuing this account of the apparition but she speaks of a prelate who will absolutely oppose this wave of apostasy and impiety - saving the priesthood by forming good priests. I do not say that prophecy refers to me. You may draw your own conclusions. I was stupefied when reading these lines but I cannot deny them, since they are recorded and deposited in the archives of this apparition.
Thanks for bringing this to light to help keep things on an even keel... it's easy for us now in this period of time, to criticize, hind sight is 20/20, they say... the archbishop was sailing uncharted waters, period...
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 21, 2017, 10:26:02 PM

Sir, you are 100% spot on.  How right you are!  ABL's waffling helps explain the deplorable situation, as we find it today in the SSPX.  The purblind followers of Fellay are the unfortunate legatees of a mixed Lefebvrian message, IMO.  Yet Lefebvrism, even in its halcyon days, could never have been the ultimate path to the Church's eventual restortion.  

Our Lady made the solution quite clear to Sr. Lucy 60 years ago, and it did not necessarily include the restoration of the True Mass and the traditional priesthood.  

She informed Sr. Lucy that there are two "last remedies."  If these two "last remedies" are not observed and strictly adhered to, there remain no others.  They are basically two 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and 2) the Holy Rosary.  So emphatic was Our Lady that She warned quite solemnly in the words of Fr. Augustin Fuentes:

"If you despise and repulse this ultimate means, (i.e. the two last remedies), we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Spirit...."
.
This reminds me of how to view the behavior of "bishop of Rome, Francis" in this regard. 
What does he have to say about the Rosary? By his fruits we should know him.
.
"Pickle-pepper-faced, neo-Pelagian, Creed reciting, Rosary counting, parrot Christians?" 
.
What has he had to say about devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? I don't know, but I'm afraid to ask.
.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: hollingsworth on November 21, 2017, 11:27:59 PM
N.O.
Quote
What has he (Francis) had to say about devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? I don't know, but I'm afraid to ask.

Forget Francis.  How many sspx priests; how many traditional priests from other traditional Catholic venues have endorsed or reinforced Our Lady's "two last remedies to the world," as conveyed by Sr. Lucy to the faithful through Fr. Fuentes in 1957?  I don't mean to imply that traditional priests don't really love Mary or that they are not truly devoted to her- simply that devotion to Her Immaculate Heart and the Holy Rosary do not form the basis, generally, of their homiletic discourse.  They do not constitute the ultimate solution to the Church's apostasy.  If I am wrong, I invite correction.  These last two means are not generally put forward as final "remedies," to which no others will be added.  Bp. Williamson seems to come the closest to doing this in our experience and in our opinion.  
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Incredulous on November 22, 2017, 09:01:45 AM


These "last two remedies" (Holy Rosary & the Immaculate Heart of Mary) are more significant to the "End times" than we think because:

Our Lady did not mention Our Lord's Sacred Heart, which represents the Holy Eucharist*.

(https://sacredheartnac.org/slideshows/homeLarge/sacred-heart-rough-draft-fire-heart-2.jpg)

This is to be interpreted that for a period of time, we will actually lose the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Holy Eucharist  :facepalm:

So, we will lose validly ordained Massing priests by persecution, attrition and apostasy.   




*  Why do we equate the Sacred Heart with the Holy Eucharist?
Because the Holy Eucharist is the whole Christ with His human heart.


According to St. Margaret Mary, the Sacred Heart is the Holy Eucharist.


So it follows that devotion to the Sacred Heart is devotion to the Holy Eucharist.


It is infinite Love Incarnate living in our midst in the Blessed Sacrament.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: klasG4e on November 22, 2017, 10:03:57 AM
 
Novus Ordo to a great degree has replaced the Sacred Heart and St. Margaret Mary with Divine Mercy (image of Divine Mercy shows no heart)  and Faustina.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Cantarella on November 23, 2017, 12:11:37 AM

Novus Ordo to a great degree has replaced the Sacred Heart and St. Margaret Mary with Divine Mercy (image of Divine Mercy shows no heart)  and Faustina.
I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm

(https://catholicwideweb.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/divinemercy.jpg)

"A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: JPaul on November 23, 2017, 07:52:48 AM
I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm

(https://catholicwideweb.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/divinemercy.jpg)

"A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
Notice that in this modern fantasy, there is nothing for you to see as far as having to look upon the wounded heart of our Lord which was the price for this great mercy unto men.  No, all that we see is the great outpouring of mercy which demands nothing from us, not even the contemplation of Christ's suffering as the greatest of mercies.  The conciliar religion is a one way handout from God to men, a type of divine welfare system.  
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: klasG4e on November 23, 2017, 02:35:34 PM
A certain pope appears to have had a great liking for Faustina.
Beatified By: Pope John Paul II on April 18, 1993
Canonized By: Pope John Paul II on April 30, 2000
***************************************************
And now for the "rest of the story" or rather a critique of her diary: http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start (http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start)

Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Cantarella on November 23, 2017, 04:42:35 PM
A certain pope appears to have had a great liking for Faustina.
Beatified By: Pope John Paul II on April 18, 1993
Canonized By: Pope John Paul II on April 30, 2000
***************************************************
And now for the "rest of the story" or rather a critique of her diary: http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start (http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start)

Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions. Pius XII had put Faustina's writtings on the Index because the content would lead Catholics astray. Even during John XXIII's pontificate, the Holy Office issued condemnations of the Divine Mercy writings twice, so why would JPII supported the thrice-condemned devotion?. Today, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" as to not offend worldly sensitivities and seems quite inept in maintaining the purity of Catholic doctrine.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Kazimierz on November 23, 2017, 06:49:40 PM
Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions.
Dead bang right. We cannot accept post V2 beatifications and canonizations precisely because they are not Catholic.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: JPaul on November 23, 2017, 07:34:27 PM
Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions. Pius XII had put Faustina's writtings on the Index because the content would lead Catholics astray. Even during John XXIII's pontificate, the Holy Office issued condemnations of the Divine Mercy writings twice, so why would JPII supported the thrice-condemned devotion?. Today, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" as to not offend worldly sensitivities and seems quite inept in maintaining the purity of Catholic doctrine.
We can see that those with the Catholic sense can and do discern with clarity.  After fifty odd years there are not enough gray shadows which can hide the lies from the light of Truth, and the excuse of ambiguity has been rendered useless in denying the truth about the conciliarists intent and motivations.
Of course this only applies to those who would seek the Truth, and when found, accept it.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Incredulous on November 24, 2017, 08:13:16 AM
Dead bang right. We cannot accept post V2 beatifications and canonizations precisely because they are not Catholic.

Yeah Kaz, but I feel guilty for the possibility of doubting real saints... like Maximilian Kolbe or St. Katherine Drexel.

The sinister removal of the Church's traditional devils' advocate investigation process proves how great the modernist sacrilege is.

I've heard from a Catholic scholar, what I thought was a good piece of advise:
"That we can pray for intercession from the Saint and should remain hopeful of their Canonization".

Here, I think we have to apply some Catholic common sense: JPII, Paul VI, John XXIII, Escriva... no way.  
Their modernists actions and controversies were too great to have bypassed the investigation process.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Wessex on November 24, 2017, 11:01:01 AM
This R & R script using familiar masonic bogeymen and all those well-meaning Romans would I am sure persuade any young man to run for the hills to retain his sanity. The impression that shadowy enemies of the Church are controlling the actions of bishops and priests against their spiritual will is not a good recommendation for any young man looking for a healthy home to exercise his religious instincts ...... and instinct will be all that is left after doctrine has been reduced to zero and ritual reduced to pantomime. But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship. 
 
I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most. I have a neigbour who likes to visit such places because they are "spiritual" and she is a practising Hindu! I wonder if they read palms there, too. Equally, the idiosyncratic mind of Bp. W has something in common with my visiting Jehova's Witnesses who constantly warn me of the what is about to happen. It says so on their tablets!
 

But behind the confusion all men are not well-meaning. We could single out Bergoglio but he is a puppet of worldly masters and can be relied upon to give his blessing to a continuing stream of human 'progress' and experimentation. Such are the fruits of a series of reformers whose authority some still grant legitimacy. I would say it passed from them once they intentionally professed a new theology leaving a vacancy in the form of a devolved stewardship detached from modern Rome that many accept.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: SeanJohnson on November 24, 2017, 12:33:32 PM
This R & R script using familiar masonic bogeymen and all those well-meaning Romans would I am sure persuade any young man to run for the hills to retain his sanity. The impression that shadowy enemies of the Church are controlling the actions of bishops and priests against their spiritual will is not a good recommendation for any young man looking for a healthy home to exercise his religious instincts ...... and instinct will be all that is left after doctrine has been reduced to zero and ritual reduced to pantomime. But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship.
 
I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most. I have a neigbour who likes to visit such places because they are "spiritual" and she is a practising Hindu! I wonder if they read palms there, too. Equally, the idiosyncratic mind of Bp. W has something in common with my visiting Jehova's Witnesses who constantly warn me of the what is about to happen. It says so on their tablets!
 

But behind the confusion all men are not well-meaning. We could single out Bergoglio but he is a puppet of worldly masters and can be relied upon to give his blessing to a continuing stream of human 'progress' and experimentation. Such are the fruits of a series of reformers whose authority some still grant legitimacy. I would say it passed from them once they intentionally professed a new theology leaving a vacancy in the form of a devolved stewardship detached from modern Rome that many accept.
Congratulations on completing your longest post ever.

I have seen very little from you in the way of proposed solutions.

Care to offer any?

You don't like the R&R position.

Got it.

Your solution, apparently, is to wait out the 60 year (and counting) "interregnum?"

100 years....

200 years....

Never mind the problems this illogical position raises for visibility, indefectability, restoration of an hierarchy; etc.

"Lone bishops in the woods," perhaps?  

"The REAL Paul VI" tied up in a Spanish basement at 119 yrs-old, maybe?

Your position is a mind snare, which plunges its adepts deeper into an irreconcilable and insoluble position.

The absurdity of its conclusions ought to have indicated to you long ago that you were heading down the wrong path.

Like it or not, Archbishop Lefebvre had it right from the beginning.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: hollingsworth on November 24, 2017, 02:28:40 PM
W:
Quote
I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most.

Wessex has always thought that he was above the fray.  He looks down patiently and benignly from the heights upon the struggling trads below, and probably wonders why others, including, even, only semi-enlightened bishops, can not fully grasp, as he does, the true condition of the fallen church and the benighted sspx.  These R & R folks are a simple bunch, you understand.  They must be occasionally schooled, though in tangled verbiage that most ordinary people don't understand.  This is W's patented shtick with which many of us have become well acquainted over the years.
"Fatima is all things to all people, he avers.  My question is simply this:  What is Fatima to Wessex?  I would request that he answer in simple declarative sentences. But knowing that he is probably incapable of answering straight away, we must probably be content with some kind of cryptic reply, if, indeed, he confronts the question at all.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: JPaul on November 24, 2017, 02:51:38 PM
Wessex,
Quote
But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship.
Yes it is now mostly form without the substance.  Fatima is what it is, a  prophetic warning of how we might forego some of the deserved punishments that are a part of Holy writ, but it was ignored by the princes of the Church and so the evil times have overtaken us and the events which are foretold in the Gospel must conclude in their own way according to God's will.

As many times as any group of clerics work their own versions of satisfying Our Lady's request by substituting themselves for the whole Church, it is to no avail. That is not what She asked for, is it?

A rousing condemnation of the apostacy in Rome and an upbraiding of the long line of popes who would not do what was asked, might have had some meaning or effect, but as you imply, it seems more of a photo op against a symbolic backdrop. That also ineffective because it has all been tainted by ecuмenism and the false religion. All in all, it is very SSPXish isn't it?
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 24, 2017, 07:37:15 PM
.
I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm

(https://catholicwideweb.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/divinemercy.jpg)

"A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
.
Notice that in this modern fantasy, there is nothing for you to see as far as having to look upon the wounded heart of our Lord which was the price for this great mercy unto men.  No, all that we see is the great outpouring of mercy which demands nothing from us, not even the contemplation of Christ's suffering as the greatest of mercies.  The conciliar religion is a one way handout from God to men, a type of divine welfare system.  
.
The hands of Our Lord in this Divine Mercy picture do not show the marks of the nails, which therefore does not offend Protestants. Some of these pictures go as low as His feet, but they show no nail marks there, either. Similarly, since Protestants have complained about the "disembodied heart" featured in Sacred Heart images, that too is missing. The Newchurch approach is to lower Catholic standards so as to become acceptable to Protestants, whom they call "non-Catholic Christians" and "our brothers in the faith."
.
It seems to me these points are important to keep in mind when thinking of "the Divine Mercy." I have heard Newchurch faithful praying the Rosary, when at the Decade Prayer they say, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell.  Lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of The Divine Mercy." So they drag it into the Rosary as if they were using their rosary beads to recite the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
.
Since this image portrays this Divine Mercy pouring out like rain, it is not in conflict with universal salvation and syncretism.
.
The foundation of this phenomenon is firmly ensconced in Vatican II, for in the Opening Speech of John XXIII he said the Council would not condemn error, and that instead of condemnation (of error) the council will seek to apply the "medicine of mercy."
.
The problem with that is, of course, that mercy is not medicine, but penance is medicine. All this was in the shadow of Fatima where Our Lady emphasized the medicine of penance to the 3 children. And John XXIII chose to ignore Fatima.
.
.
Title: Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
Post by: Kazimierz on November 25, 2017, 08:41:38 AM
Yeah Kaz, but I feel guilty for the possibility of doubting real saints... like Maximilian Kolbe or St. Katherine Drexel.

The sinister removal of the Church's traditional devils' advocate investigation process proves how great the modernist sacrilege is.

I've heard from a Catholic scholar, what I thought was a good piece of advise:
"That we can pray for intercession from the Saint and should remain hopeful of their Canonization".

Here, I think we have to apply some Catholic common sense: JPII, Paul VI, John XXIII, Escriva... no way.  
Their modernists actions and controversies were too great to have bypassed the investigation process.
If there are true saints that have gone to Heaven since the V2 crisis, and one can certainly argue for the possibility, I do not see why they cannot be officially included in the feast of All Saints, until such time as Rome is once again Catholic. We live in Hope.(not the town in British Columbia mind! ;))