Author Topic: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540) (Read 2854 times)

Cantarella · « **Reply #15 on:** November 23, 2017, 04:42:35 PM »

Quote from: klasG4e on November 23, 2017, 02:35:34 PM

A certain pope appears to have had a great liking for Faustina.
Beatified By: Pope John Paul II on April 18, 1993
Canonized By: Pope John Paul II on April 30, 2000
***************************************************
And now for the "rest of the story" or rather a critique of her diary: http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start

Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions. Pius XII had put Faustina's writtings on the Index because the content would lead Catholics astray. Even during John XXIII's pontificate, the Holy Office issued condemnations of the Divine Mercy writings twice, so why would JPII supported the thrice-condemned devotion?. Today, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" as to not offend worldly sensitivities and seems quite inept in maintaining the purity of Catholic doctrine.

Kazimierz · « **Reply #16 on:** November 23, 2017, 06:49:40 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella on November 23, 2017, 04:42:35 PM

Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions.

Dead bang right. We cannot accept post V2 beatifications and canonizations precisely because they are not Catholic.

JPaul · « **Reply #17 on:** November 23, 2017, 07:34:27 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella on November 23, 2017, 04:42:35 PM

Completely contradictory as coming from two different religions. Pius XII had put Faustina's writtings on the Index because the content would lead Catholics astray. Even during John XXIII's pontificate, the Holy Office issued condemnations of the Divine Mercy writings twice, so why would JPII supported the thrice-condemned devotion?. Today, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" as to not offend worldly sensitivities and seems quite inept in maintaining the purity of Catholic doctrine.

We can see that those with the Catholic sense can and do discern with clarity. After fifty odd years there are not enough gray shadows which can hide the lies from the light of Truth, and the excuse of ambiguity has been rendered useless in denying the truth about the conciliarists intent and motivations.
Of course this only applies to those who would seek the Truth, and when found, accept it.

Incredulous · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2017, 08:13:16 AM »

Quote from: Kazimierz on November 23, 2017, 06:49:40 PM

Dead bang right. We cannot accept post V2 beatifications and canonizations precisely because they are not Catholic.

Yeah Kaz, but I feel guilty for the possibility of doubting real saints... like Maximilian Kolbe or St. Katherine Drexel.

The sinister removal of the Church's traditional devils' advocate investigation process proves how great the modernist sacrilege is.

I've heard from a Catholic scholar, what I thought was a good piece of advise:
"That we can pray for intercession from the Saint and should remain hopeful of their Canonization".

Here, I think we have to apply some Catholic common sense: JPII, Paul VI, John XXIII, Escriva... no way.
Their modernists actions and controversies were too great to have bypassed the investigation process.

Wessex · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2017, 11:01:01 AM »

This R & R script using familiar masonic bogeymen and all those well-meaning Romans would I am sure persuade any young man to run for the hills to retain his sanity. The impression that shadowy enemies of the Church are controlling the actions of bishops and priests against their spiritual will is not a good recommendation for any young man looking for a healthy home to exercise his religious instincts ...... and instinct will be all that is left after doctrine has been reduced to zero and ritual reduced to pantomime. But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship.

I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most. I have a neigbour who likes to visit such places because they are "spiritual" and she is a practising Hindu! I wonder if they read palms there, too. Equally, the idiosyncratic mind of Bp. W has something in common with my visiting Jehova's Witnesses who constantly warn me of the what is about to happen. It says so on their tablets!

But behind the confusion all men are not well-meaning. We could single out Bergoglio but he is a puppet of worldly masters and can be relied upon to give his blessing to a continuing stream of human 'progress' and experimentation. Such are the fruits of a series of reformers whose authority some still grant legitimacy. I would say it passed from them once they intentionally professed a new theology leaving a vacancy in the form of a devolved stewardship detached from modern Rome that many accept.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2017, 12:33:32 PM »

Quote from: Wessex on November 24, 2017, 11:01:01 AM

This R & R script using familiar masonic bogeymen and all those well-meaning Romans would I am sure persuade any young man to run for the hills to retain his sanity. The impression that shadowy enemies of the Church are controlling the actions of bishops and priests against their spiritual will is not a good recommendation for any young man looking for a healthy home to exercise his religious instincts ...... and instinct will be all that is left after doctrine has been reduced to zero and ritual reduced to pantomime. But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship.

I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most. I have a neigbour who likes to visit such places because they are "spiritual" and she is a practising Hindu! I wonder if they read palms there, too. Equally, the idiosyncratic mind of Bp. W has something in common with my visiting Jehova's Witnesses who constantly warn me of the what is about to happen. It says so on their tablets!

But behind the confusion all men are not well-meaning. We could single out Bergoglio but he is a puppet of worldly masters and can be relied upon to give his blessing to a continuing stream of human 'progress' and experimentation. Such are the fruits of a series of reformers whose authority some still grant legitimacy. I would say it passed from them once they intentionally professed a new theology leaving a vacancy in the form of a devolved stewardship detached from modern Rome that many accept.

Congratulations on completing your longest post ever.

I have seen very little from you in the way of proposed solutions.

Care to offer any?

You don't like the R&R position.

Got it.

Your solution, apparently, is to wait out the 60 year (and counting) "interregnum?"

100 years....

200 years....

Never mind the problems this illogical position raises for visibility, indefectability, restoration of an hierarchy; etc.

"Lone bishops in the woods," perhaps?

"The REAL Paul VI" tied up in a Spanish basement at 119 yrs-old, maybe?

Your position is a mind snare, which plunges its adepts deeper into an irreconcilable and insoluble position.

The absurdity of its conclusions ought to have indicated to you long ago that you were heading down the wrong path.

Like it or not, Archbishop Lefebvre had it right from the beginning.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2017, 02:28:40 PM »

W:

Quote

I am not convinced that Fatima should be the last gasp of a dying tradition. Fatima is all things to all people and seeing groups of bishops hanging around with their photo-shoots would be lost on most.

Wessex has always thought that he was above the fray. He looks down patiently and benignly from the heights upon the struggling trads below, and probably wonders why others, including, even, only semi-enlightened bishops, can not fully grasp, as he does, the true condition of the fallen church and the benighted sspx. These R & R folks are a simple bunch, you understand. They must be occasionally schooled, though in tangled verbiage that most ordinary people don't understand. This is W's patented shtick with which many of us have become well acquainted over the years.
"Fatima is all things to all people, he avers. My question is simply this: What is Fatima to Wessex? I would request that he answer in simple declarative sentences. But knowing that he is probably incapable of answering straight away, we must probably be content with some kind of cryptic reply, if, indeed, he confronts the question at all.

JPaul · « **Reply #22 on:** November 24, 2017, 02:51:38 PM »

Wessex,

Quote

But R & R, a religion for contented nostalgics, must continue to be sold because Econe's emergency was only a temporary matter and that little doctrinal disagreement could in time be traded for something even better than Swiss confection or Rothschild sponsorship.

Yes it is now mostly form without the substance. Fatima is what it is, a prophetic warning of how we might forego some of the deserved punishments that are a part of Holy writ, but it was ignored by the princes of the Church and so the evil times have overtaken us and the events which are foretold in the Gospel must conclude in their own way according to God's will.

As many times as any group of clerics work their own versions of satisfying Our Lady's request by substituting themselves for the whole Church, it is to no avail. That is not what She asked for, is it?

A rousing condemnation of the apostacy in Rome and an upbraiding of the long line of popes who would not do what was asked, might have had some meaning or effect, but as you imply, it seems more of a photo op against a symbolic backdrop. That also ineffective because it has all been tainted by ecuмenism and the false religion. All in all, it is very SSPXish isn't it?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2017, 07:37:15 PM »

Quote from: JPaul on November 23, 2017, 07:52:48 AM

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Quote from: Cantarella on November 23, 2017, 12:11:37 AM
I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm

"A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
.
Notice that in this modern fantasy, there is nothing for you to see as far as having to look upon the wounded heart of our Lord which was the price for this great mercy unto men. No, all that we see is the great outpouring of mercy which demands nothing from us, not even the contemplation of Christ's suffering as the greatest of mercies. The conciliar religion is a one way handout from God to men, a type of divine welfare system.

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The hands of Our Lord in this Divine Mercy picture do not show the marks of the nails, which therefore does not offend Protestants. Some of these pictures go as low as His feet, but they show no nail marks there, either. Similarly, since Protestants have complained about the "disembodied heart" featured in Sacred Heart images, that too is missing. The Newchurch approach is to lower Catholic standards so as to become acceptable to Protestants, whom they call "non-Catholic Christians" and "our brothers in the faith."
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It seems to me these points are important to keep in mind when thinking of "the Divine Mercy." I have heard Newchurch faithful praying the Rosary, when at the Decade Prayer they say, "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of The Divine Mercy." So they drag it into the Rosary as if they were using their rosary beads to recite the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
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Since this image portrays this Divine Mercy pouring out like rain, it is not in conflict with universal salvation and syncretism.
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The foundation of this phenomenon is firmly ensconced in Vatican II, for in the Opening Speech of John XXIII he said the Council would not condemn error, and that instead of condemnation (of error) the council will seek to apply the "medicine of mercy."
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The problem with that is, of course, that mercy is not medicine, but penance is medicine. All this was in the shadow of Fatima where Our Lady emphasized the medicine of penance to the 3 children. And John XXIII chose to ignore Fatima.
.
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Kazimierz · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2017, 08:41:38 AM »

Quote from: Incredulous on November 24, 2017, 08:13:16 AM

Yeah Kaz, but I feel guilty for the possibility of doubting real saints... like Maximilian Kolbe or St. Katherine Drexel.

The sinister removal of the Church's traditional devils' advocate investigation process proves how great the modernist sacrilege is.

I've heard from a Catholic scholar, what I thought was a good piece of advise:
"That we can pray for intercession from the Saint and should remain hopeful of their Canonization".

Here, I think we have to apply some Catholic common sense: JPII, Paul VI, John XXIII, Escriva... no way.
Their modernists actions and controversies were too great to have bypassed the investigation process.

If there are true saints that have gone to Heaven since the V2 crisis, and one can certainly argue for the possibility, I do not see why they cannot be officially included in the feast of All Saints, until such time as Rome is once again Catholic. We live in Hope.(not the town in British Columbia mind!

)

Author Topic: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540) (Read 2854 times)

Cantarella

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Kazimierz

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JPaul

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Incredulous

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Wessex

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SeanJohnson

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hollingsworth

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JPaul

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Neil Obstat

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Kazimierz

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