Author Topic: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)  (Read 1807 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
« on: November 20, 2017, 04:30:32 PM »
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  • How Discern? – I
    When all men mean well, how know good from bad?
    By watching where fruits truly good are had.

    A young man with a good mind is asking a good question about the crisis in the Church, and another good question about the crisis in the Society of St Pius X. Here is how Joseph frames his first question:—
    On the one hand the Conciliar crisis was one is a series of crises afflicting the Church, such as Protestantism, Liberalism, and Revolutions, with two World Wars, and therefore errors made their way at the Council which were clearly condemned by the Church before Vatican II. And after the Council its novelties were applauded by classical enemies of the Church, such as Freemasons and Socialists, while the Church’s missionary spirit has clearly been extinguished. On the other hand the ideas of the Council are the work of highly intelligent and supposedly Catholic churchmen, and one cannot all the time say that the Pope is not Pope, or that the majority of modernist Bishops are invalidly consecrated. Therefore can one say that the Conciliar crisis involves shadowed areas which still make it difficult to see clear? And if we cannot arrive at definite conclusions, can we be sure we are holding onto the true Faith?
    The best reply comes from Our Lord Himself, speaking in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. VII, 15–20) – “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Obviously Our Lord knew that there would be constant attacks on His Church with repeated attempts of the Devil to sow confusion in His followers’ minds. The confusion that has followed on Vatican II is not different in kind from previous crises in Church history, even if by the defection of the churchmen at Vatican II the confusion today is unprecedented in degree – never before have the mass of Catholic shepherds been so lost, nor therefore the Catholic sheep.
    Nevertheless, to find one’s way out of the confusion, the same infallible principle still applies: actions speak louder than words, and the f ruits of a man’s actions are the surest guide to who he is and what he really intends. Especially in the case of modernism a man can be deceiving himself as to what he wants or intends, because nobody is so deeply detached from reality as a modernist. “The end of the world will be characterised by men doing evil while thinking they are doing good,” said Fr Faber in mid-19th century. In the 21st century we are at the wrong end of this centuries-long process of mankind deceiving itself as it has turned away from God. Then would God be leaving His sheep defenceless against such unprecedented wolves in sheep’s clothing as modernists are? No, because to judge by the fruits is something that anybody can do, with a minimum of common sense and upright will.
    Therefore, Joseph, you observe that today’s Church authorities are highly intelligent men and supposedly Catholic, and you quite reasonably assume that they are the valid authorities of the Chur ch, because even if you know that their fruits are so little Catholic as to make many a Catholic dispute that validity, notwithstanding who else is there who is authorised to speak and act for the Universal Church? But at the same time you observe that their ideas are in line with grave anti-Catholic errors from the past, and that they are now applauded by classic enemies of the Church, such as Freemasons. Arguments on one side and on the other. Doubts and shadows. How do you resolve the confusion?
    Answer, by your own further observation that the missionary spirit has disappeared from the Church since Vatican II. Here are the fruits. The Council preached ecumenism ( Unitatis Redintegratio ), religious liberty ( Dignitatis Humanae ) and the relative acceptability of false religions such as Hinduism, Islam and Judaism ( Nostra Aetate ) – how could the Catholic missionary spirit not collapse after the Council? And have not countless monasteries, seminaries, convents, dioceses and parishes also emptied out and closed down since Vatican II? Did new ones open anywhere? Yes, under the leadership of the one Catholic bishop worldwide who from the beginning repudiated openly the Council and all its works, Archbishop Lefebvre. Here were the selfsame fruits of the selfsame Catholic principles, faithfully applied in defiance of Vatican II. Joseph, you need look no further.

    Kyrie eleison.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 05:45:02 PM »
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  • We have always been at war with Eurasia.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 07:52:21 AM »
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  • But what of these fruits?


    17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

    What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

    Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
    his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

    Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

    Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

    Nea.
    I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

    It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

    You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 09:22:12 AM »
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  • But what of these fruits?


    17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

    What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

    Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
    his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

    Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

    Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

    Nea.
    I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

    It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

    You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.
    Ah yes, more soldiers to fulfill the visionaries predictions of a Divine role to save the Church.

    Quote
    When all men mean well, how know good from bad?
    By watching where fruits truly good are had.
    As a premise for discernment, presuming that all men are of good will is illogical.

    As to the council,
    Quote
    Yes, under the leadership of the one Catholic bishop worldwide who from the beginning repudiated openly the Council and all its works, Archbishop Lefebvre.
    Sorry, this is not a true or accurate statement. Antonio Casrto Myer was the one Bishop who repudiated the council and its issue. He did not sign any of the documents,(that is repudiation from the beginning).
    He condemned both the council and the New Mass.
    On the other hand the Archbishop signed all of the documents, and his condemnation was not complete, but selective and conditional with both the council and the New Mass as it remains with his progeny today.
    To embellish his actions needlessly diminishes his legacy of  his good efforts on the Church's behalf.

    The visible fruits which are manifest today from the men of good will are are discensions, distrust, sectarianism, worldliness, disunity, confusion, ambiguity, compromise, and ineffectiveness against the Satanic invasion of the Church.

    A rich harvest indeed.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 11:29:05 AM »
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  • But what of these fruits?


    17 new priests ordained at the new SSPX showpiece, Virginia seminary

    What does this growth and these apparent temporal blessings mean?

    Since the German Zionist attorney/politician, Maximilian Krah admitted in a Remnant news interview,
    his Jaidhoff trust donations would help fund the seminary.  

    Is this good, bad or tainted fruit?

    Do they represent hijacked neo-tradition, willing to compromise with 95% of the Council to gain acceptance with the mainstream modernists ?

    Nea.
    I submit that accepting 1% of the Council means you are poisoned and though your leaves are green, your tree will bear no good fruit.

    It doesn't matter if you own a metric ton of incense and have 1,000 men in long cassocks.

    You are the walking dead because of your compromise against the true Faith.
    To extend the metaphor of fruits, trees, leaves and poison...indeed the leaves are green, for now poison ivy grows where once something wholesome did; Athelas/Kingsfoil, that is, this world's version thereof.
    And yes, who needs fictional zombies when there are plenty of the real things trapezing along the streets.
    Any word about our Swiss choco ration this week? ;D


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 01:05:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    J Paul: On the other hand the Archbishop signed all of the documents, and his condemnation was not complete, but selective and conditional with both the council and the New Mass as it remains with his progeny today. To embellish his actions needlessly diminishes his legacy of  his good efforts on the Church's behalf.


    Sir, you are 100% spot on.  How right you are!  ABL's waffling helps explain the deplorable situation, as we find it today in the SSPX.  The purblind followers of Fellay are the unfortunate legatees of a mixed Lefebvrian message, IMO.  Yet Lefebvrism, even in its halcyon days, could never have been the ultimate path to the Church's eventual restortion.  
    Our Lady made the solution quite clear to Sr. Lucy 60 years ago, and it did not necessarily include the restoration of the True Mass and the traditional priesthood. 
    She informed Sr. Lucy that there are two "last remedies."  If these two "last remedies" are not observed and strictly adhered to, there remain no others.  They are basically two 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and 2)the Holy Rosary.  So emphatic was Our Lady that She warned quite solemnly in the words of Fr. Augustin Fuentes:
    "If you despise and repulse this ultimate means, (i.e. the two last remedies), we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Spirit...."

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 07:48:51 PM »
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  • It may be of some interest to recall a certain passage taken from Archbishop Lefebvre's Consecration sermon on 30 June 1988: "Just recently, the priest who takes care of the priory of Bogota, Colombia, brought me a book concerning the apparition of Our Lady of "Buon Suceso," - of "Good Fortune," to whom a large church in Quito, Ecuador, was dedicated. They were received by a nun shortly after the Council of Trent, so you see, quite a few centuries ago. This apparition is thoroughly recognized by Rome and the ecclesiastical authorities; a magnificent church was built for the Blessed Virgin Mary wherein the faithful of Ecuador venerate with great devotion a picture of Our Lady, whose face was made miraculously. The artist was in the process of painting it when he found the face of the Holy Virgin miraculously formed. And Our Lady prophesied for the twentieth century, saying explicitly that during the nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century, errors would become more and more widespread in Holy Church, placing the Church in a catastrophic situation. Morals would become corrupt and the Faith would disappear. It seems impossible not to see it happening today.
    I excuse myself for continuing this account of the apparition but she speaks of a prelate who will absolutely oppose this wave of apostasy and impiety - saving the priesthood by forming good priests. I do not say that prophecy refers to me. You may draw your own conclusions. I was stupefied when reading these lines but I cannot deny them, since they are recorded and deposited in the archives of this apparition.

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 08:36:25 PM »
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  • It may be of some interest to recall a certain passage taken from Archbishop Lefebvre's Consecration sermon on 30 June 1988: "Just recently, the priest who takes care of the priory of Bogota, Colombia, brought me a book concerning the apparition of Our Lady of "Buon Suceso," - of "Good Fortune," to whom a large church in Quito, Ecuador, was dedicated. They were received by a nun shortly after the Council of Trent, so you see, quite a few centuries ago. This apparition is thoroughly recognized by Rome and the ecclesiastical authorities; a magnificent church was built for the Blessed Virgin Mary wherein the faithful of Ecuador venerate with great devotion a picture of Our Lady, whose face was made miraculously. The artist was in the process of painting it when he found the face of the Holy Virgin miraculously formed. And Our Lady prophesied for the twentieth century, saying explicitly that during the nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century, errors would become more and more widespread in Holy Church, placing the Church in a catastrophic situation. Morals would become corrupt and the Faith would disappear. It seems impossible not to see it happening today.
    I excuse myself for continuing this account of the apparition but she speaks of a prelate who will absolutely oppose this wave of apostasy and impiety - saving the priesthood by forming good priests. I do not say that prophecy refers to me. You may draw your own conclusions. I was stupefied when reading these lines but I cannot deny them, since they are recorded and deposited in the archives of this apparition.
    Thanks for bringing this to light to help keep things on an even keel... it's easy for us now in this period of time, to criticize, hind sight is 20/20, they say... the archbishop was sailing uncharted waters, period...


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 10:26:02 PM »
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  • Sir, you are 100% spot on.  How right you are!  ABL's waffling helps explain the deplorable situation, as we find it today in the SSPX.  The purblind followers of Fellay are the unfortunate legatees of a mixed Lefebvrian message, IMO.  Yet Lefebvrism, even in its halcyon days, could never have been the ultimate path to the Church's eventual restortion.  

    Our Lady made the solution quite clear to Sr. Lucy 60 years ago, and it did not necessarily include the restoration of the True Mass and the traditional priesthood.  

    She informed Sr. Lucy that there are two "last remedies."  If these two "last remedies" are not observed and strictly adhered to, there remain no others.  They are basically two 1) Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and 2) the Holy Rosary.  So emphatic was Our Lady that She warned quite solemnly in the words of Fr. Augustin Fuentes:

    "If you despise and repulse this ultimate means, (i.e. the two last remedies), we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Spirit...."
    .
    This reminds me of how to view the behavior of "bishop of Rome, Francis" in this regard. 
    What does he have to say about the Rosary? By his fruits we should know him.
    .
    "Pickle-pepper-faced, neo-Pelagian, Creed reciting, Rosary counting, parrot Christians?" 
    .
    What has he had to say about devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? I don't know, but I'm afraid to ask.
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 11:27:59 PM »
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  • N.O.
    Quote
    What has he (Francis) had to say about devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary? I don't know, but I'm afraid to ask.

    Forget Francis.  How many sspx priests; how many traditional priests from other traditional Catholic venues have endorsed or reinforced Our Lady's "two last remedies to the world," as conveyed by Sr. Lucy to the faithful through Fr. Fuentes in 1957?  I don't mean to imply that traditional priests don't really love Mary or that they are not truly devoted to her- simply that devotion to Her Immaculate Heart and the Holy Rosary do not form the basis, generally, of their homiletic discourse.  They do not constitute the ultimate solution to the Church's apostasy.  If I am wrong, I invite correction.  These last two means are not generally put forward as final "remedies," to which no others will be added.  Bp. Williamson seems to come the closest to doing this in our experience and in our opinion.  

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 09:01:45 AM »
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  • These "last two remedies" (Holy Rosary & the Immaculate Heart of Mary) are more significant to the "End times" than we think because:

    Our Lady did not mention Our Lord's Sacred Heart, which represents the Holy Eucharist*.



    This is to be interpreted that for a period of time, we will actually lose the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Holy Eucharist  :facepalm:

    So, we will lose validly ordained Massing priests by persecution, attrition and apostasy.   




    *  Why do we equate the Sacred Heart with the Holy Eucharist?
    Because the Holy Eucharist is the whole Christ with His human heart.


    According to St. Margaret Mary, the Sacred Heart is the Holy Eucharist.


    So it follows that devotion to the Sacred Heart is devotion to the Holy Eucharist.


    It is infinite Love Incarnate living in our midst in the Blessed Sacrament.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 10:03:57 AM »
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  •  
    Novus Ordo to a great degree has replaced the Sacred Heart and St. Margaret Mary with Divine Mercy (image of Divine Mercy shows no heart)  and Faustina.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 12:11:37 AM »
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  • Novus Ordo to a great degree has replaced the Sacred Heart and St. Margaret Mary with Divine Mercy (image of Divine Mercy shows no heart)  and Faustina.
    I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

    TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm



    "A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #13 on: November 23, 2017, 07:52:48 AM »
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  • I think the reason why is that whereas the Sacred Heart of Jesus was traditionally a symbol of combativity and militancy for Christendom, Divine Mercy represents happy, unconditional "mercy" towards sinners (without justice). It explains the drastic changes in approach between pre & post Vatican II Catholicism. Sacred Heart of Jesus is militant in spirit and used in all counter-revolutionary movements since the time it was revealed to St. Margaret Mary back the 17th century; but the whole Divine Mercy devotion does not represent the Catholic spirit at all. "The Catholic spirit is one of making constant reparation in penance for our sins, of praying for the graces of God, for the mercy of God in this life".

    TIA has a great article contrasting the two devotions here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/polemics/F_07_DM_01.htm



    "A typical Divine Mercy image remindful of a whirling dervish"
    Notice that in this modern fantasy, there is nothing for you to see as far as having to look upon the wounded heart of our Lord which was the price for this great mercy unto men.  No, all that we see is the great outpouring of mercy which demands nothing from us, not even the contemplation of Christ's suffering as the greatest of mercies.  The conciliar religion is a one way handout from God to men, a type of divine welfare system.  

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Eleison Comments - How Discern part 1 (No. 540)
    « Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 02:35:34 PM »
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  • A certain pope appears to have had a great liking for Faustina.
    Beatified By: Pope John Paul II on April 18, 1993
    Canonized By: Pope John Paul II on April 30, 2000
    ***************************************************
    And now for the "rest of the story" or rather a critique of her diary: http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/ua/user_article-faustinas_divine_mercy_devotion.htm#Start


     

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