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Author Topic: Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III  (Read 14327 times)

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Offline curioustrad

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Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2013, 05:19:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: curioustrad
    Quote from: parentsfortruth
    Quote from: curioustrad
    Let us not suggest who may be influencing whom. Let us rather ask a much more interesting question: why now ?

    Just a few weeks ago +W was spouting ( a word he loves btw) on whether one could go to the NOM or not now it's the SSPX with quite an opposite extreme position.

    AGAIN: WHY NOW ?


    I ask you the same thing, curioustrad. WHY ARE YOU BACK NOW? You've been gone for months.


    No, I never left ! Glad to see yah !


    So you were just lurking since April. Okay. As they say "silence is golden." It was better when you were lurking.


    No just observing the counsel of Scripture: A cautious man concealeth knowledge: and the heart of fools publisheth folly. Proverbs 12:23
    Please pray for my soul.
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    RIP


    Offline Incredulous

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #16 on: September 21, 2013, 10:33:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    This is disappointing:

    It would seem that Bishop Williamson is coming under the influence of Fr. Pfeiffer, rather than the other way around.

    Bishop Williamson's position was the more balanced of the two conflicting opinions on SSPX Mass attendance.

    To say that, as a general rule, one ought not attend SSPX Masses is an unfortunate slide toward the erroneous Fr. Pfeiffer position.

    Natural enough, I suppose, since Fr. Pfeiffer is in the leadership position.

    But as His Lordship said when he was here in St. Paul:

    "Those who do not act the way they think, will begin to think the way they act."

    Bishop Williamson should have condemned Fr. Pfeiffer's "red light" long ago.

    For one reason or another, he did not.

    And so now he endorses it.

    With qualifications, but nevertheless...



    How to gauge the chapels of the neoSSPX ?    :scratchchin:

    Wouldn't it be interesting to take an anonymous poll of their priest and see who are really 100% behind Msgr. Fellay ?

    Most of them are validly ordained, many holy, but there is something lacking in their character that keeps them there.  

    Every priest has his own story and reason, but the longer they stay under the Fellay regime, the greater the risk to their priesthood.

    My friend takes the next step and says... "the greater the risk to their souls".



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 06:47:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: tradical
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    It's too bad that His Excellency continues to justify attending the Masses of priests that are supposedly still orthodox. This position ignores that these priests, by their silence, adopt the official principles of the neo-SSPX.


    It would be nice if you could actually demonstrate that the principles of the SSPX are not in fact Catholic principles.

    God Bless my fellow Canadian!

    Tradical, not you again!  I posted on Ignis Ardens as Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F.  We've been through this before.  We have to just agree to disagree as the neo-SSPX is willing to do with Rome.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 11:40:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous
    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    This is disappointing:

    It would seem that Bishop Williamson is coming under the influence of Fr. Pfeiffer, rather than the other way around.

    Bishop Williamson's position was the more balanced of the two conflicting opinions on SSPX Mass attendance.

    To say that, as a general rule, one ought not attend SSPX Masses is an unfortunate slide toward the erroneous Fr. Pfeiffer position.

    Natural enough, I suppose, since Fr. Pfeiffer is in the leadership position.

    But as His Lordship said when he was here in St. Paul:

    "Those who do not act the way they think, will begin to think the way they act."

    Bishop Williamson should have condemned Fr. Pfeiffer's "red light" long ago.

    For one reason or another, he did not.

    And so now he endorses it.

    With qualifications, but nevertheless...



    How to gauge the chapels of the neoSSPX ?    :scratchchin:

    Wouldn't it be interesting to take an anonymous poll of their priest and see who are really 100% behind Msgr. Fellay ?

    Most of them are validly ordained, many holy, but there is something lacking in their character that keeps them there.  

    Every priest has his own story and reason, but the longer they stay under the Fellay regime, the greater the risk to their priesthood.

    My friend takes the next step and says... "the greater the risk to their souls".





    Pretty easy to gauge, actually:

    Unless the SSPX betrays the Faith in official policy (e.g., as the 1984 indult required acknowledgement of the doctrinal uprightness of the NOM in order to avail oneself of the indult);

    Or, unless the priest preaches error from the pulpit;

    Then you must attend.

    But the concern at present is not the positive teaching of error, but the omission to condemn the errors of Vatican II and the Roman modernists (per the branding campaign, and Cardinal Canizares' appeal to focus on spirituality and virtue, rather than condemning the heretics).

    But I doubt very much the omission is sufficient to abstain from Mass, since it would be a very remote threat, and dangerous only over extended periods of time.

    It is a shame that the sword has been dropped, for sure (though our priest is having a conference on Vatican II between the Masses today, which I was not able to attend).

    If there was/is a deal with Rome, that threat would become more proximate, but even this is only a possible future contingency, remote in time, and by no means certain.

    The problem with Fr. Pfeiffer's position is that it places souls in immediate danger (violation of the Sabbath without justification).

    Yes, he thinks there is justification, but his rationale is easily refuted:

    1) We cannot attend FSSP Masses because they have officially compromised on doctrine (i.e., accepting the errors of Vatican II);

    2) But Bishop Fellay's doctrinal declaration also officially accepts the errors of Vatican II;

    3) Therefore, we also cannot any longer attend SSPX Masses.

    Leaving aside a critique of the various passages Fr. Pfeiffer thinks accepted Vatican II, or violated the Faith, the simple fact is that the Declaration is NOT OFFICIAL POLICY.

    Therefore the attempted justification/command to abstain from SSPX Masses (built completely on this illusory premise) vanishes.

    If President Obama sponsors a bill which gets shot down in the Senate, can we still pretend it is the law of the land, and take actions based on something that never became law?

    Similarly with the Declaration.

    The only concern (unless Rome starts warming up to Bishop Fellay again) is the branding campaign; the slow conditioning of priests and faithful not to hate Vatican II so much.

    Over time, this will facilitate the coveted agreement with a still-modernist Rome, and when that happens, the SSPX will be swallowed up and dissolved into Conciliarism.

    But even this is not a doctrinal issue; it is an incredibly scandalous and imprudent political strategy; a move away from Archbishop Lefebvre's combat against error; designed to bring about an end which will be the SSPX's undoing, but not against the Faith.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 11:48:59 AM »
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  • How is a weakening of the fight against Vatican II not against the Faith?

    Vatican II is about the worst thing to happen to the Church since Arianism. It is the personification of the heresy of Modernism, and as subtle as the devil himself. A nice mix of good and bad -- the devil's favorite recipe that's been in the family for ages. Modernism is the most dangerous heresy that has ever been devised by the devil. The devil saved his big guns for the 20th century with Modernism.

    Laying down one's arms even for a minute to "be nice" to Vatican II -- the child and incarnation of Modernism -- is tantamount to treason.

    It is like the general of an army going in unarmed to "talk terms of peace" with an enemy with a ruthless and vicious reputation. But not just the general alone, but he is trying to get a huge group of his commanders and soldiers to go with him. So the kingdom could be at risk because of the apparent treachery (for lack of a better term) of this general.

    Modernism isn't a joke. Vatican II isn't a joke. It's not harmless. It's not 95% good. It's the devil's secret weapon. It's his trump card.

    How many souls have left the Faith because of Vatican II? Just like one cannot praise the Blessed Mother enough, one cannot condemn Vatican II enough.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 11:52:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    How is a softening of the stance toward Vatican II not against the Faith?

    Vatican II is about the worst thing to happen to the Church since Arianism. Modernism is the most dangerous heresy that has ever been devised by the devil. The devil saved his big guns for the 20th century with Modernism.

    Laying down one's arms even for a minute to "be nice" to Vatican II -- the child and incarnation of Modernism -- is tantamount to treason.

    It is like the general of an army going in unarmed to "talk terms of peace" with an enemy with a ruthless and vicious reputation. But not just the general alone, but he is trying to get a huge group of his commanders and soldiers to go with him. So the kingdom could be at risk because of the apparent treachery (for lack of a better term) of this general.

    Modernism isn't a joke. Vatican II isn't a joke. It's not harmless. It's not 95% good. It's the devil's secret weapon. It's his trump card.

    How many souls have left the Faith because of Vatican II? Just like one cannot praise the Blessed Mother enough, one cannot condemn Vatican II enough.


    I agree with this entire post, except for the opening question:

    Which dogma of the faith do you consider the branding campaign violates?

    Please quote the dogma, and specifically how the branding campaign has contradicted it.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 11:58:40 AM »
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  • There are lots of evil things that could be done, which would leave you similarly speechless to quote a dogma and explain exactly how it is being violated.

    Some things are common sense.

    The best I can come up with is -- Indifferentism is against the Faith. Modernism is a heresy, and heresy can't be true along with the True Faith. Anything which promotes indifferentism is evil and against the Faith.

    Plus it's common sense that the Faith does not benefit by "branding campaigns". Madison Avenue is not part of the economy of salvation, or propagation of the Faith. As evidence of this, imagine Moses, Jeremias, or Jesus hiring publicity agents to aid in their apostolates. The very idea is ludicrous.

    Moreover, it is repugnant to common sense and the Sensus Catholicus that a non-Catholic, secular corporation making six figures could "do good things" for a Catholic organization like the SSPX. Such an organization helping a group like the SSPX must necessarily involve compromising it or setting it off down the wrong path.

    When you sup with the devil, you use a long spoon. Catholics have long known that you don't start talking with the devil. He'll win every time because of his subtlety and angelic intellect.

    Likewise, it's foolish to have any "truck" with Vatican II. This is one thing the Sedevacantists have done right -- they don't pussy-foot around with Vatican II. They call it diabolical and evil, and don't get anywhere near it's contagion. Others aren't quite so prudent. They look for the good, convince themselves it's not that bad, etc.

    Vatican II is big time. It kills souls like Listerine kills germs. It's as subtle as the devil himself, and men much better educated, and much smarter than either of us have fallen -- just for getting too close. Vatican II's wake is littered with dead souls.
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    Offline stgobnait

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 12:29:44 PM »
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  • Religious liberty is against the Faith.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 12:44:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: stgobnait
    Religious liberty is against the Faith.


    Agreed.

    Now please demonstrate where the branding campaign has endorsed religious liberty.

    That you can't is because the branding campaign is a political orientation, not a doctrinal teaching.

    As such, it is not possible for a branding campaign to violate the faith (though it remains a scandalous lever/means towards a reconciliation which will destroy the SSPX).

    That is the point (if it ever comes to fruition) at which you should start to look for official statements/policies of the SSPX contradicting the Faith.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline stgobnait

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 12:47:26 PM »
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  • Splitting a few hairs there, sean.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 01:00:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: stgobnait
    Splitting a few hairs there, sean.


    I am making the point that the branding campaign (while disastrous and suicidal) is a non-doctrinal thing;

    As such, it is not possible for it to betray the faith.

    It is an imprudent prudential strategy which, if left to run its course, will lead to a deal with an unconverted Rome which, in my personal opinion, will turn the SSPX into another Campos.

    But the campaign itself, since it makes no doctrinal statements, cannot deny the Faith (though it can facilitate a deal which might in the future).

    The campaign is a behavior, not a doctrine.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 03:26:54 PM »
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  • Sean, for the sake of discussion, if you conclude that you should still attend SSPX Masses in order to fulfill Sunday obligation, do you have any reason not to also support the Resistance whenever and however possible?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #27 on: September 22, 2013, 03:40:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Sean, for the sake of discussion, if you conclude that you should still attend SSPX Masses in order to fulfill Sunday obligation, do you have any reason not to also support the Resistance whenever and however possible?


    I would have a problem supporting any priest throwing up a blanket red light on SSPX Mass attendance, since I believe doing so is leading people into mortal sin.

    I will not be complicit in that.

    If on the other hand, an independent priest simply voices concerns about the new direction of the SSPX, and warns people to be vigilant (such as Fr. Ringrose), I have no problem attending and supporting such priests.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 06:41:23 PM »
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  • So far, there have been substantial qualifiers on the "red lights".

    It's difficult to know exactly what Frs. Pfeiffer and Hewko would consider valid reasons to continue attendance at the SSPX as I've only heard limited remarks straight from them (perhaps I've missed something), but S2S got the following from speaking with Fr. Hewko.

    Quote from: s2srea
    FOR THE RECORD:

    I called Fr. Hewko on my way home from work today. Discussed this forum, and asked his permission to use his words. I explained this forum, the disagreement, my rationale for attending the SSPX for mass. He said it was okay. He said what another member here mentioned earlier. Objectively, we should not attend the SSPX due to the hierarchy's lost ways. Subjectively, we cannot judge each and every priest as having sold out, though we can say they should be more active in speaking out against the inevitable sell-out, and so it is permissible to attend the SSPX for mass.

    I hope this clears things up, coming from one of the main Resistance priests.


    As Matthew mentioned previously, if they thought it to be the most serious of matters, they would say something as both have been here in the past six weeks and said nothing to the group or us privately about discontinuing attendance at our chapel (only one person here has done so).

    I also don't think Bp Williamson's comments in this EC are very solidly "red". He leaves it to the nature of the priest and recommends avoiding those who approve of the present attitude of the SSPX (or punish those who don't approve) which isn't terribly different than your own "unless the priest preaches error from the pulpit." He even gives a surprising allowance to attend any SSPX Mass if it means keeping your children in an otherwise good school.

    So, yes, they disagree with you regarding whether or not the unaccepted statements to Rome constitute policy, but the end result is the same.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Eleison Comments: Horrible Falls III
    « Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 07:31:03 PM »
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  • SJ:
    Quote
    I would have a problem supporting any priest throwing up a blanket red light on SSPX Mass attendance, since I believe doing so is leading people into mortal sin.


    So, quite simply, you believe that Bp. Williamson and Frs. Pfeiffer, Chazal and Hewko are leading people into mortal sin.