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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 04:43:53 PM »
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  •  Jesus suggests a love-affair between St. Peter and Our Lady

     Jesus even jokes with impropriety with his apostles. Here, Jesus stands up and calls out loudly and angrily to Peter:

     “‘Come here, you usurper and corrupter!’
     “‘Me? Why? What have I done, Lord?’
     “‘You have corrupted My Mother. That is why you wanted to be alone. What shall I do with you?’
     “Jesus smiles and Peter recovers his confidence. ‘You really frightened me! Now You are laughing.” (Vol. II, n. 199, p. 185)

    This filth alone requires the condemnation of Valtorta.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 06:59:07 PM »
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  • Since searches for phrases in the text yield nothing, it's highly unlikely to be from any work available on the internet as a text file, which includes Valtorta.

    It might be from an old book never scanned to text, or something relatively recent, never before published.
    Well, I searched: 
    Quote
    An indescribable joy. Human, and superhuman. Perfect joy.

    and up popped 
    http://poemmangod.forumotion.com/t2503-1943-mary-s-christmas-ecstasy
    Easy peasy!
    Isn't it normal practice that when you use a quote you acknowledge the author? I find that sneaky.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 08:16:02 PM »
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  • Well, I searched: and up popped 
    Nice catch! I searched other phrases (including "living vase of my heart" and "seven sources of happiness opposed") and found nothing. Perhaps the text in EC is a translation from Italian rather than a direct lift from an English source. Now, the EC text has been posted around and is itself showing up in searches.

    Offline jvk

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #18 on: December 27, 2018, 08:15:50 AM »
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  •  I don't understand why the good Bishop keeps insisting that this is something all Catholics should read.  Does anyone have any answers to this?!

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #19 on: December 27, 2018, 08:39:19 AM »
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  • I don't understand why the good Bishop keeps insisting that this is something all Catholics should read.  Does anyone have any answers to this?!
    Bishop Wiiliamson himself has said many times that we should not follow the SSPX, Abp. L, Bp. Williamson or any other personality) when they conflict with truth, that we should always follow truth. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 09:52:14 AM »
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  • My impression is that Valtorta's poem impacts people similar to a Medjugorje conversion?

    Have you ever noticed that most Conciliar Catholics who visited Medjugorje become zealous converts in the cult?

    TIA provides some good argumentation against the Valtorta cult:


    Valtorta’s Poem of the Man-God

     Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.

    A friend recently sent me an e-mail asking about Maria Valtorta and her Poem of the Man-God. She received a recent issue of Kyrie Eleison comments of Bishop Richard Williamson titled “Home Reading” (October 20, 2012). In it, he recommends parents read selected chapters of the Poem of the Man-God to children every night.

     He admits the Poem is controversial and has many enemies, but he defends Valtorta’s massive tome (4,000 pages in 10 volumes of supposed visions she received of the life of Christ). The Bishop supports it, despite the objections he lists: that it is riddled with doctrinal errors, that it humanizes Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that the work was placed on the Church’s Index of Forbidden Books in the 1950s.

     He lightly dismisses all the arguments against it and concludes children will learn much about Our Lord and Our Lady from the Poem, which “will fortify a home.”

     “I have not read this book,” my friend continues, “but, for Heaven’s sake, why didn’t Bishop W. recommend reading the wonderful, approved, written-by-a-canonized saint 4-volume City of God by Mother Mary of Agreda? But that is beside the point. I really do wish to know if you approve of the Poem of the Man-God. Even the title upsets my Catholic sensibilities.”

     A humanized Christ

     I believe my friend should follow her good Catholic sense. The very title, the Man-God , expresses the spirit of the work. It is Jesus as a man that Valtorta presents: a babe suckling greedily at his Mother’s breasts, a youth hardly aware of Who He is, a Man who laughs and jokes with His Apostles and is constantly kissing them on the mouth and embracing them closely. Yes, at the least, it is difficult not to suspect this showy Jesus pictured in such way as having homosexual tendencies.

     Valtorta’s natural approach is supposed to attract the modern man to the Life of Christ. It is in tune with the progressivist doctrine that tries to deny the supernatural and instead presents Our Lady as a simple Jewish woman and focuses on Our Lord as being a man “like us.” As Atila Guimaraes points out in Animus Injuriandi I, the progressivist Church aims to de-mythify and de-supernaturalize Christ and His Mother under the guise of presenting a natural “historical” Christ and Mary.” I believe Valtorta’s Jesus and Mary fit this mold.


    An illustration of Valtorta's Jesus, a somewhat occult figure with a magnetic gaze
    Valtorta’s Man-God depiction is the opposite of the God-Man portrayed by Anne Catherine Emmerich and Ven. Mary of Agreda, whose life of Christ is presented from an elevated, supernatural vantage point. One cannot help but wonder why the traditionalist Bishop would not recommend these works, instead of the Valtorta tomes, which were officially condemned by the Holy Office and placed on the Index in December 1959 and defined by L’Osservatore Romano of January 6,1960 as “a badly fictionalized life of Jesus.”

     After Vatican II, Paul VI abolished the Index of Forbidden Books, and Valtorta’s supporters claim this nullifies the suppression of 1959. Unfortunately, the official position of the Church today is less than clear, with important Prelates and Catholic figures on both sides of the issue. Obviously, the progressivists, almost to the man, defend it.

     The Poem of the Man-God, I believe, is riddled with banalities, vulgarities, blasphemies and even doctrinal errors. There are endless idle conversations between Our Lord, Our Lady and the Apostles, all on a natural level. I think the best way to confirm these points is simply to cite some texts, which are so revolting that they speak for themselves.

     The quotes that follow are taken from an online edition of The Poem of the Man-God. A 48-page critique written in the 1980s – when the Poem’s popularity surged for a period, as it seems to be resurging now – by a Salesian, Brother James, S.D.B., can be read in its entirety here (Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 3, Vol. 4, Vol. 5) .

     An Infant conceived with original sin

     Valtorta portrays the Christ Child as a greedy infant of a sentimental Mother. It is difficult to find the respect we owe to Our Lord Jesus Christ in this imaginary immodest description of a nursing scene:


    The Man-God presents a naturalistic view of Our Lady and the Christ Child
    “Jesus opens His eyes, sees His Mother and smiles and stretches His little hands toward Her breast.

     “[Mary] ‘Yes, love of Your Mummy. Yes. Your milk. Before the usual time. But You are always ready to suck Your Mummy's breast, My little holy Lamb!’

     “Jesus laughs and plays, kicking His feet out of the blankets, moving His arms happily in a typical childish style, so beautiful to see. He pushes His feet against His Mummy's stomach. He arches His back leaning His fair head on Her breast, and then throws Himself back and laughs, holding with His hands the laces that tie Mary's dress to Her neck, endeavoring to open it. …

     “Mary nurses Him and Jesus avidly sucks His Mother's good milk, and when He feels that only a little is coming from Her right breast, He looks for the left one, laughing while doing so and looking up at His Mother. Then He falls asleep again on Her breast, His rosy round little cheek resting against Her white round breast.” (Vol 1, n. 35, p. 106).

     An Adult with homosexual tendencies

     Valtorta’s Jesus suspiciously displays homosexual tendencies since he is constantly kissing and embracing the Apostles. When Jesus tells James of His approaching Passion, James reacts with great emotion. Jesus comforts him thus:

     “’Come, I will kiss you thus, to help you forget the burden of My fate as Man. Here, I kiss your lips that will have to repeat My words to the people of Israel and your heart that will have to love as I told you, and there, on your temple, where life will cease.’ … They remain embraced for a long time and James seems to doze off in the joy of God's kisses that make him forget his suffering.”


    Recently beatified Gabriel Allegra, a Teilhard de Chardin colleague, was a promoter of the Man-God Poem
    When Valtorta describes the “favorite” Apostle John as having the face of a young girl with the “gaze of a lover,” we can hardly avoid having the impression that they have a homosexual relationship. Here Jesus is kissing John to awaken him:

     “Jesus bends and kisses the cheek of John, who opens his eyes and is dumbfounded at seeing Jesus. He sits up and says, ‘Do you need me? Here I am.’ …

     “John, half naked in his under-tunic, because he used his tunic and mantle as bed covers, clasps Jesus’ neck and lays his head between Jesus’ shoulder and cheek.”

     After John professes his belief and love in Jesus as Son of God, “he smiles and weeps, panting, inflamed by his love, relaxing on Jesus’ chest, as if he were exhausted by his ardor. And Jesus caresses him, burning with love Himself.”

     John begs Jesus not to tell the others of what has passed between them. Jesus replies, “Do not worry, John. No one will be aware of your wedding with the Love. Get dressed, come. We must leave.” (Vol. 2, n. 165, pp. 57-58)

     Jesus suggests a love-affair between St. Peter and Our Lady

     Jesus even jokes with impropriety with his apostles. Here, Jesus stands up and calls out loudly and angrily to Peter:

     “‘Come here, you usurper and corrupter!’
     “‘Me? Why? What have I done, Lord?’
     “‘You have corrupted My Mother. That is why you wanted to be alone. What shall I do with you?’
     “Jesus smiles and Peter recovers his confidence. ‘You really frightened me! Now You are laughing.” (Vol. II, n. 199, p. 185)

     Like Luther, Mary thinks: Let us sin to be forgiven

     Some passages are tantamount to heresy. For example, Valtorta presents the child Mary as expressing her desire to be a big sinner in order to merit the grace of Redemption:

     “[Mary]: ‘Tell Me, mummy, can one be a sinner out of love of God?
     “[Anne]: ‘What are you saying, my dear? I don't understand you.’
     “[Mary]:’I mean: to commit a sin in order to be loved by God, Who becomes the Savior. Who is lost, is saved. Isn’t that so? I would like to be saved by the Savior to receive His loving look." (Vol. 1, n. 7, p. 23).

     A sensual Eve tending toward bestiality

     The work is also not without doctrinal errors, such as when Valtorta asserts the sin of Eve was not disobedience, but a sexual act. There is also an insinuation of a tendency toward bestiality in Eve. This erotic description was supposedly made by Jesus:

     “With his venomous tongue Satan blandished and caressed Eve’s limbs and eyes… Her flesh was aroused … The sensation is a sweet one for her. And ‘she understood.’ Now Malice was inside her and was gnawing at her intestines. She saw with new eyes and heard with new ears the habits and voices of beasts. And she craved for them with insane greed. “She began the sin by herself. She accomplished it with her companion.” (Vol. 1, n. 17, p. 49)

     These are some excerpts I offer to my readers to evaluate Valtorta’s work. I believe they are sufficient for the reader to make a judgment of the whole.

     It is thus understandable that the Holy Office placed the work on the Index of Forbidden Books, which is reproduced below. It is also understandable that the Salesian Brother James concluded his critique of the first two volumes with these words: “Poem of the Man-Godis so demonic that without a special grace from Our Lord Jesus, we could be deceived by the seemingly harmless statements by Valtorta’s Jesus, but they enclose lies and heresy, contrary to the teachings of One, Holy Catholic Church.”


    *
    Supreme Congregation of
     the Holy Office


     Decree
     Proscription of Books
     Wednesday, December 16, 1959

     The Most Eminent and Reverend Cardinals of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office, to whom the safeguarding of things of the Faith and Moral is confided, after receiving the previous opinions of the Consultors, have unanimously condemned and ordered that the books by an anonymous author, in four volumes, be inscribed in the Index of Forbidden Books, the first of those books being:

     Il Poema di Gesù [The Poem of Jesus] (Tipografia Editrice M. Pisani);

     followed by,

     Il Poema dell'Uomo-Dio [The Poem of the Man-God], (Ibidem).

     On Friday of that same month and year, the Most Holy and Dignified Lord John XXIII, Pope by the grace of Divine Providence, in an audience given to the Most Eminent and Reverend Cardinal Secretary of the Holy Office, after hearing the report of the Most Reverend Fathers, approved this resolution and commanded that it be published.

     Given in Rome, in the seat of the
     Holy Office on January 5, 1960.
     Sebastian Masala, Notary




    Why would anyone read Valtorta's book, when we have Sister Mary of Agreda's  City of God , which has over 400 years of Church approval?

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 10:35:15 AM »
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  • The only place the Valtorta book has in society is in the trash, or better, a fire. It's homosexual pornography disguised as Catholic reading.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Offline jvk

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 10:50:00 AM »
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  • Thank you, LT.  Of course, we follow the Catholic truth if there's ever any question on human grounds!  I was just wondering why--with such scandalous passages in such a book--he continues to promote it?  I understand he's human, and as such not perfect.  But he's so grounded in solid truth in other ways, it doesn't make any sense to me.  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #23 on: December 27, 2018, 11:36:15 AM »
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  • Thank you, LT.  Of course, we follow the Catholic truth if there's ever any question on human grounds!  I was just wondering why--with such scandalous passages in such a book--he continues to promote it?  I understand he's human, and as such not perfect.  But he's so grounded in solid truth in other ways, it doesn't make any sense to me.  

    Bishop Williamson, since I have known him, has always been rather taken by the various private revelations floating around out there ... from Garabandal to Akita to Valtorta to Dawn Marie.  I'm not sure why that is.  He seems predisposed to lend credence to them whereas the Church has always had the opposite attitude ... skepticism until proven otherwise.

    Offline nottambula

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 04:43:22 PM »
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  • https://tradidi.com/abl-on-maria-valtorta




    Archbishop Lefebvre on Maria Valtorta
    Conference for the Carmelites of Quievrain, 21 July 1986


    by Abp. Marcel Lefebvre
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}]
    Audio[/size]
    [/font][/size]


    In the following excerpt of a 1986 conference he gave for the Carmelites of Quievrain, Archbishop Lefebvre cautions us against reading the so called "Poem of the Man God" by Maria Valtorta. He starts of by ridiculing the amount of trivial, insignificant and useless details which causes the book to take up 13 volumes and which exposes us to the danger of abandoning the spiritual level of the Gospel and of "materializing" the life of Our Lord. Towards the end he expresses his disbelief and disapproval of the "gross" nature of a passage he read of a conversation between Mary Magdalen and Our Lady.

    In summary, the Archbishop obviously did not believe the book to be inspired in any way, but simply a product of the runaway imaginations of a woman.

    Even if you don't understand French, it would still be worthwhile to listen to the audio file in order to appreciate the Archbishop's intonations and the resulting laughter of his audience.


    So you see, at the occasion of this Source, which is Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, Source of our knowledge of God, and at the occasion of this contact with the Humanity of God, we will see how Our Lord Jesus Christ has revealed Himself. We will see a little more into the details how He has revealed the knowledge of God. But, at this point, I would like to make a little "parenthesis" concerning the diverse books which speak to us of God. I would like to say a few words to you on the Bible, on the Gospels, the New Testament. With them, we are sure of what we read, of what we learn, of what we discover about God in the Old Testament, in the New Testament. There is no hesitation there because the Bible is the Word of God. It is of faith. We have not the right to doubt an instant because Holy Scripture is the Word of God. It is not the word of the apostles. It is God Who speaks through the apostles. Of course, He uses their intelligence, their memory, their love and all that aid their faculties, but it is He Who is the Principal Author. The apostles are only instruments, as a pen. As a pen is the instrument of our writing, well the apostles have been intelligent instruments – the Good God has used their intelligence, their memory, their knowledge, but they are instruments of God. The words that have resulted in Scripture, God is the Author of them. It is He Who is responsible for all that is written. In consequence, there we have no doubt, when we read Holy Scripture, we know that it is God Who speaks. Therefore, what is there, we have no doubt of.

    But, in the libraries of our convents and seminaries, there are how many, many writers who have written on Our Lord. We could fill a library with these books alone. There are certainly things very good, very holy, which have been approved by the Church – The Imitation of Jesus Christ, all these books on Holy Scripture, certain commentaries of Holy Scripture, explanations of Holy Scripture – anyway, these books are not lacking. But we have other books which are not just explanations of Holy Scripture or commentaries of Holy Scripture, but which present themselves in order to be also a certain revelation on Our Lord Jesus Christ. You have, for example, a recent book which has appeared, which is widely read and is easily found in the hands of persons, it is the book of Maria Valtorta. You have surely heard this book spoken of, and, you have perhaps read it yourselves – the book of Maria Valtorta, which is enormous – I believe there are 13 volumes on the Life of Our Lord.

    So, what must one think of this? It is necessary to be truly very careful, very careful, and not to accord it immediately to faith because this person who calls herself inspired, who says to have seen all of these writings in vision, in particular, in all their details, very tiny details – truly even details of things very, very insignificant. The apostles are written of to the least of details, the conversations between the apostles and the Most Holy Virgin, between Philip and James, the character of this one and that one, all is written to the smallest of details.

    I admit, I read part of it because Father Barrielle was very much in favor of this book of Maria Valtorta. He was convinced that it was absolutely true, that it could not be not true, that it does a lot of good. I don't say that it does not do good, to enter like that into the company of the apostles and the Blessed Virgin, and to see the Blessed Virgin live, to see the Child Jesus live, to see Him growing. It is true, that puts us in an atmosphere that makes us live more perhaps with Our Lord. But, there is a danger, also. It is that that can cause us to somewhat diminish the idea that we form of Our Lord when we read the Gospels. When we simply read the Scriptures and the commentaries on Scripture, we remain on a very spiritual level precisely because the Gospels do not enter into all of these physical, material details – the house of Nazareth in all its details, the preparations in the kitchen, the cooking of the food, all these little details, the little birds that are in the cage, and all that! There is something ravishing; it is captivating. But, there is perhaps this, also, that one causes Our Lord to almost descend to our level. Without doubt, the Good God wanted to live among us; it is clear. He did not want to live as an angel, He wasn't as Raphael, who accompanied Tobias and said "Actually, you believed I ate and I didn't eat because I nourish myself with another nourishment. I am one of the 7 who is standing before the Divine Majesty!" Tobias was on the ground, he was so afraid! And it seemed that he had eaten, yet he did not eat. Can we say that of Our Lord? I believe not! Our Lord has truly wanted to live as one of us, When Our Lord ate, He ate. He didn't have simply an apparent body. He had a True Body like us. He suffered in His Body; His Blood has been shed.

    So, there is a little danger to let oneself materialize the Life of Our Lord too much. I even read a bit of Maria Valtorta, and I fell upon a passage which did not please me a lot, I assure you: the conversation of Mary Magdalen with the Most Holy Virgin at the foot of the Cross. Truly, I do not believe that St. Mary Magdalen has said things like that to the Blessed Virgin. It was really almost rude. Mary Magdalen saying to the Blessed Virgin Mary: "You, you are pure; me, all that I know in my life – I have become impure. Me, I am this, I am that, while you are this, you are that." That shocked me – speaking to the Blessed Virgin like that. Why recall her adulteries, her dissolute life, and in a manner almost gross, rude? I do not think that it is possible that Saint Mary Magdalen would address herself like that to the Blessed Virgin at the foot of the Cross. It is not possible.

    So, I don't know. But I admit that I put a question mark on her revelations. I am telling you because I believe they are not important. It is necessary to remain on the level of the knowledge of Our Lord, the knowledge of the Gospel, the level of the Gospel, not descending to things...

    There are other of these books: Catherine Emmerich, Mary of Agreda. I think that they have things that are very beautiful. They are perhaps a lot more approved than Maria Valtorta. That can do a lot of good, I do not doubt it. However, I think that one must not give to these things the equivalence of the Gospel. I think that we have so many books of saints who have written of their life with Our Lord and all that has inspired them. I believe that I am prolonging a little too much – but let us read those books which are very edifying... We will never replace Holy Scripture. Consequently, we must have great esteem for the words of the Gospel and try to further discover the Good God through the Gospel.
    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #25 on: December 27, 2018, 06:37:45 PM »
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  • Nottambula seems to have made the conclusive, "+ABL reference" post for this forum topic :farmer:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline cebu

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #26 on: December 28, 2018, 08:01:25 AM »
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  • Oh help, the Puritans are out again attributing indecency in The Poem where none is meant because of their dirty minds and using selective quotes to do so. Just think what you could get Holy Scripture to say if were to use selective quotes.

    Yet again, IF you are interested in the truth then read this link - http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Summa.pdf  This will answere each and every query any truth seeker is looking for. If you are not interested in the truth and just wanting to push your puritan agenda, please be quiet.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #27 on: December 28, 2018, 10:24:20 AM »
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  • And they shall teach my people the difference between holy and profane, and shew them how to discern between clean and unclean.  (Ezekiel 44:23)

    The excerpts quoted on this thread are, at best, simply profane, and at worst, blasphemous.  Profane means “not relating to that which is religious or spiritual, but secular”. It also means “to treat something holy with irreverence or disrespect.”

    The excerpts quoted debase God, Our Lady and the Saints by bringing them down to “man’s level”, by “humanizing” God, by making Our Lord “normal”.  This is wrong, sinful and utter blasphemy.  As Scripure says above, God is not be understood in a profane/unholy/secular way, but in a spiritual/holy/religious way.  Stories of God and of His Mother are not meant to humanize them, but to spiritualize us.  These stories are subversive and demonic, even if parts are “cute” and emotional.  

    As +W always says, “God is not a puppy dog”.  In fact, God is the Lion of the Tribe of Juda.  The puppy dog is not respected and is given attention when a person is “feeling like it”.  A lion demands respect and awe because of His power and majesty.  Treat God like a lion, not a puppy dog. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #28 on: December 28, 2018, 10:49:16 AM »
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  • Oh help, the Puritans are out again attributing indecency in The Poem where none is meant because of their dirty minds and using selective quotes to do so. Just think what you could get Holy Scripture to say if were to use selective quotes.

    Yet again, IF you are interested in the truth then read this link - http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Summa.pdf  This will answere each and every query any truth seeker is looking for. If you are not interested in the truth and just wanting to push your puritan agenda, please be quiet.

    Were Puritans in the Philippines too ?  :popcorn:

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline cebu

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Hearts Protection (no. 597)
    « Reply #29 on: December 28, 2018, 11:50:01 AM »
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  • Notice how the puritans are not interested in the truth and will not even discuss the article on the link provided. They get worse by saying that Archbishop Lefebvre allowed his saintly spiritual director for Econe, Fr Barrielle, to push the Poem even though they claim it is all so disgusting. So what does that say about Archbishop Lefebvre?

    Puritans get everywhere I fear. They are pharisees with dirty minds. 

     

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