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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)  (Read 2119 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2018, 06:08:19 PM »
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  • J
    Quote
    Paul:Wait and see has been the stock and trade of the SSPX and R&R in general since the Archbishop first made his declaration, the actors change but the policies do not and we still wait to see a change, almost half a century and we continue to wait as souls are lost to bad doctrine and non-Catholic rituals.
    If wait and see has been the attitude of sspx since the Archbishop’s declaration, then isn’t it reasonable to conclude that ABL himself helped foster that attitude. In fact, he may have been its architect. So then, why jump all over the neo-sspx under the direction of Fellay & Co.? They were only continuing the legacy left by their founder.o

    I know that many sspxers claim that ABL learned his lesson after the 1988 Protocol debacle.  If so, I would have to entertain the thought that the organization's founder came a little bit late to the dance.  Why would it be unreasonable to think in this way?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #16 on: August 15, 2018, 06:24:00 PM »
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  • In Dr White's biography of +BW, it is revealed that Bishop Williamson was Archbishop Lefebvre's choice for episcopal consecration in 1987/1988, when he was negotiating the Protocol, and it is for this reason that Rome procrastinated, stalled, and obfuscated.

    Contrary to what BXVI would later claim in the wake of the Swedish h0Ɩ0cαųst interview ("Unfortuntely, none of us went on the internet to see what sort of man we were dealing with"), Rome feared and despised Fr. Williamson, and knew exactly who and what they were facing, should he ever have become the sole bishop of the SSPX.

    Is it possible that Rome provoked Archbishop Lefebvre to consecrate deliberately, in order that there would be 4 bishops (i.e., 3 other candidates to rival +BW, rather than have him stand unopposed atop the SSPX)?

    If Bishop Williamson would never sell the SSPX down the river, perhaps one of the other three would?

    Later, a few donors would petition Archbishop Lefebvre to consecrate a Swiss bursar...

    Well, in the same section of the Biography, it is revealed that Rome knew in 1999 that the fate of the SSPX would come down to Bishop Fellay vs Bishop Williamson.

    I won't spoil things, but 1999 was quite a year, and nobody knew a thing about it (but they will now, when the Biography is finally released).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #17 on: August 15, 2018, 06:34:21 PM »
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  • If SJ is responding in any way to my last post, then I fail to see how his remarks have anything to do with a possible wait and see attitude from the earliest days of the Society, and the possible contributions made by ABL to that attitude.
    Maybe SJ is reacting to some remarks made by others earlier in the thread.  But I can't imagine which ones they may have been.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 07:25:51 PM »
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  • JIf wait and see has been the attitude of sspx since the Archbishop’s declaration, then isn’t it reasonable to conclude that ABL himself helped foster that attitude. In fact, he may have been its architect. So then, why jump all over the neo-sspx under the direction of Fellay & Co.? They were only continuing the legacy left by their founder.o

    I know that many sspxers claim that ABL learned his lesson after the 1988 Protocol debacle.  If so, I would have to entertain the thought that the organization's founder came a little bit late to the dance.  Why would it be unreasonable to think in this way?
    The Archbishop's response was an understandable position in the beginning when no one new exactly what was going to happen and how far the conciliar traitors would take things, however, he maintained the same position until his death, quite a few decades from the beginning of the revolution, and from 1988. he should have known where things were going, when John Paul II excommunicated him while using a heretical definition of Tradition in the act, as a justification. He could have been confronted right there in 1988 for using this conciliar definition which contradicted both Vatican I and The Council of Trent.  A clear point of doctrine was not defended and the society and Tradition suffered for many years.
    And no you can not fault +Fellay for adopting the same attitude of waiting for Tradition to return to Rome in accordance with the founder.
    Bishop Williamson also say that we must wait for God to return Tradition to the Church, and their it is.

    The Society now say that it can wait inside of the conciliar structure for such a return to happen, while
    +W still waits in the ante room.

    What a mess!

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #19 on: August 15, 2018, 07:44:05 PM »
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  • Funny, that now, 

    +W is the sole leader of the SSPX Resistance and we're still "waiting & seeing"  

    :popcorn:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #20 on: August 15, 2018, 09:16:59 PM »
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  • Funny, that now,

    +W is the sole leader of the SSPX Resistance and we're still "waiting & seeing"  

    :popcorn:
    If Bishop Williamson would have said "the SSPX has gone to crap," would you feel better (even though little in the concrete world would change as a result)?

    Still trying to find out why Howlingsworth suckles at the bishop's nipple so tightly that he can't make a move, lest the bishop say so.

    Yes, I find His Excellency's infernal patience a bit exasperating, but is it really a matter for abandoning the life raft to jump into the ocean (as Howlingsworth's attitude seems to suggest, even if he doesn't say it in words)?

    For me, its a matter of curiosity; for Howlingsworth, it is a matter of life and death.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #21 on: August 16, 2018, 12:02:24 AM »
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  • I just wonder if +W isn't too old to lead a resistance.  I mean, the word 'resist' means to fight, to actively oppose, to try to eliminate, reduce or stop.  Based on that definition, I don't see the 'resistance' doing much fighting - at least here in the US.  It's not as much a 'resistance' as it is a 'perseverance'.  To persevere in the Faith is certainly a good thing, but it's not the same as resisting, fighting and opposing error.  Seems to me that +W's old age has changed his focus from offense to defense.  We need both.  I hope one of the other bishops will take up the offensive side of things.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #22 on: August 16, 2018, 12:55:37 AM »
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  • Let's think a minute.
    What we do if we were Bp. Williamson?

     Okay, resources are limited, but Our Lady will intercede for us:

    1. Do an accounting of all the independent/SSPX Resistance chapels and find out what they need?

    2. Recruit new priests and seminarians and confirm their formation and orders.

    3. Develop a seminary "fast track" formation program.  Be practical, you can compress it from 6 years to 5 or 4.   ( We're in. Crisis... right?). Start the priestly mentoring of seminarians ( one-to-one).

    4. Institute standardized Catechism programs for the faithful, young & old.  Delete the heresies, e.g., "implicit Baptism for those of good will".

    5. Hold regional Resistance conferences, at least two per year.

    6. Organize resources and accommodations for priest
    coming into Resistance tradition.

    7. Coordinate priestly assignments  to Resistance chapels.

    Etc. ...etc.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #23 on: August 16, 2018, 02:04:40 AM »
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  • Let's think a minute.
    What we do if we were Bp. Williamson?

     Okay, resources are limited, but Our Lady will intercede for us:

    1. Do an accounting of all the independent/SSPX Resistance chapels and find out what they need?

    2. Recruit new priests and seminarians and confirm their formation and orders.

    3. Develop a seminary "fast track" formation program.  Be practical, you can compress it from 6 years to 5 or 4.   ( We're in. Crisis... right?). Start the priestly mentoring of seminarians ( one-to-one).

    4. Institute standardized Catechism programs for the faithful, young & old.  Delete the heresies, e.g., "implicit Baptism for those of good will".

    5. Hold regional Resistance conferences, at least two per year.

    6. Organize resources and accommodations for priest
    coming into Resistance tradition.

    7. Coordinate priestly assignments  to Resistance chapels.

    Etc. ...etc.

    Some of this is good, but some of it is impossible now, because the Resistance in the USA = Bishop Zendejas.

    1 priest/bishop.

    To the extent there really is something called the Resistance, it exists largely in France and the Philippines, and perhaps Brazil.

    In America, it exists mostly only on the internet.

    If you go back and scroll through the Resistance Writings compilation, most of those priests haven't been heard from in 5+ years.

    Some people get mad that I am always lobbying for the SAJM or MCSPX (i.e., some kind of hierarchical congregation), but it is because that is the only way to preserve and persevere in anything: Outside of those two groups (excepting the Benedictines and Dominicans), there is no hope for anything, just a slow death.

    All those Resistance priests of 2012-2013 went independent, and nobody ever heard from them again.

    But to the extent there are any Resistance vocations at all, they are almost exclusively at the SAJM, MCSPX, Santa Cruz, and Avrille:

    No congregation = no Resistance and no vocations.

    That's just one problem with the whole "loose confederation" idea (which is not Catholic).

    A loose confederation among congregations, yes.  But among independents?  Well, you will get what we have today: 

    Nothing.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eleison Comments - General Chapter III (no. 578)
    « Reply #24 on: August 16, 2018, 11:40:26 AM »
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  • Good analysis SJ.

    And if the +ABL line of Catholic tradition runs out of gas and can fight no more,  may Our Lady bring forth a new line.

    :incense:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi