Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Distinguish, Discriminate (Read 12132 times)

JPaul · « **Reply #90 on:** December 21, 2016, 08:05:43 AM »

But returning to the subject at hand,

Bishop Richard Williamson,

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From a Catholic standpoint the rite as a whole is unquestionably bad, because it radically changes the concept of the Mass from being a propitiatory sacrifice centred on God to being a community meal centred on man. As such, since most Catholics live their religion by attending Mass, then when its concept changes, their religion in effect changes. That is why the NOM is the principal destroyer of the t rue Church, and the main engine of the Newchurch. That is why the NOM as a whole is not only bad, but very bad indeed.

Here the Bishop makes the very sound case which admits to what this ritual really is and why it cannot be a work of the Catholic Church.

There is not much more which can be said and yet he then, as he is wont to do, goes about contradicting himself by saying essentially "it is very bad indeed" but, it is not that bad, and maybe you can go.
This is not logical or consistent thinking. He states the fundamental and core principle and then violated it.

After what he has stated about this sorry affair, it is impossible to say that it can be acceptable to a Catholic to endanger themselves by attending something as dangerous and non-Catholic in ethos as this is.
The Church forbids its children from attending such non-Catholic "services" where the concepts of what is taking place are not those of the Church. The Church forbids its children from proximity to heresy, or error, or anything which could alter or corrupt their Catholic Faith, which of course includes their understanding of the Holy Mass.

This Bishop would extend that permission based upon the conscience of a Novus Ordo formed Catholic who has little of no theological ability to discern or distinquish, the validity of the priest, his intent, the validity of the translation which he uses, or the matter or form which is utilized. What ability has the average person to discern if they are being slowly and subtly corrupted? It is a grave risk to take when the stakes are salvation or eternal damnation.

And after his own apt description of this corrupt service, one cannot understand why he would advise this against the will and law of the Church.

He has an international audience and influence over a countless
number of souls, and thus he has a responsibility not to lead the confused or unknowing to the poisoned spring but to lead them away from it with all haste, and to teach them why they must follow him.

It is he who has made the most effective case against his own speculative conclusions.

I pray that he will not continue this dangerous and subjectivist series of letters.
They are lessons in cognitively dissonant logic.

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #91 on:** December 21, 2016, 04:54:54 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: John Grace
Most people that I know, who attend the Novus Ordo don't know any better or those that do believe they can reform from within.

My experience has been different. I have come to the conclusion that most people who attend the Novus Ordo would NOT attend the Tridentine Latin Mass instead, even if they knew better. They choose to remain in the NOM. Most are simply too content with the emerging liberal ideas which allow them to soften or put away altogether the perceived "negative" parts of the Catholic Faith (Hell, punishment for sin, penance, women in the home, no contraception, marriage until death etc.).

I, and probably Bishop Williamson, would class these persons as "casualties" of the Novus Ordo system. These are they who have lost the Faith. The dead, the casualties.

However, this does not describe 100% of those attending the Novus Ordo, so your argument is invalid.

Invalid? I think incomplete is a better description.

John Grace's point included those who do not know any better. Cantarella included the spiritual casualties. However, as Cantarella pointed out, if someone willingly and joyfully embraces the modernism of Conciliarism then they are more like ѕυιcιdєs than casualties.

John Grace · « **Reply #92 on:** December 22, 2016, 08:10:39 AM »

A point to be made is 'resistors' within the Novus Ordo whilst a contradiction are few and far between. The Novus Ordo Bishops and most Novus Ordo clergy here in Ireland are not on our side. A few novus ordo clergy here and there and a few laity but a Trad knows they won't find allies here.

In the current battle of keeping the right to life in the constitution, I don't believe for a minute the Novus Ordo Bishops are our allies. We will have more and more casualties unless a certain approach is taken. We must continue to 'tradify'. We probably won't bring people en masse to Tradition but must try win people over for salvation of souls.

John Grace · « **Reply #93 on:** December 22, 2016, 08:15:20 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Curioustrad, I removed your posts because I'm not interested in hosting anti-Bishop Williamson rhetoric here on CathInfo.

There are at least 2 tiny forums that would love to bash Bishop Williamson with you. They'll brainstorm bad things to say about him all day long.

You are welcome to criticize THIS PARTICULAR ELEISON COMMENTS which is the subject of this thread.

It is not "open season" on Bishop Williamson.

When you start your own forum, build it up for many years, and pay the hosting bill, then YOU can set the rules.

I'm not interested in hearing (for the 1000th time) the worn-out lies about how the bishop is "controlled opposition", or negative speculation about why he chose a rose-like design for the cross on his Episcopal insignia.

Your complaints might sound legitimate to the uneducated ear, until you actually LOOK AT THE SITUATION. What, precisely, is a true, honest +Fellay-resisting prelate -- who sees no reason to change the mission the SSPX has been pursuing for decades, along the lines of +Lefevbre -- supposed to do?

I'm sick of this rhetoric from the Pfeifferites. Unfortunately, they aren't alone in their hatred of Bishop Williamson. But they ALL need to put up or shut up.

+Williamson can't claim a jurisdiction or authority that he doesn't have. He can't force priests to follow him. As I've said before, he can't jump up on the desk like a gorilla, pound his chest and say, "Me bishop. You priest. You follow!" That isn't how it works in the Catholic Church.

In normal times, yes, a bishop has jurisdiction (authority) as well as Orders. Normally they go together. But +Williamson remembers very well that he never received jurisdiction in 1988 when he was consecrated. If he had attempted to receive jurisdiction, he would have become a schismatic.

Nevertheless, like +Lefebvre, he is perfectly willing to fly around the country and perform Confirmations, even at his current advanced age. Travel is becoming more difficult for him. What more do they want? Ordinations? You have to have men trained for 6 years for that. We don't have any. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Ditto for priests. +W can't force priests to leave the SSPX, nor can he buy up 1 or 2 dozen properties to serve as seminaries, priories, lodging, Mass centers, etc.

The Resistance is in the same shape the Traditional Movement as a whole was, back in the 1970's. Few and far between, the Faithful often home alone praying for a priest, etc. And it is JUST AS LEGITIMATE because it's the main body or CORE of the Traditional Movement, at least the non-Sedevacantist wing.

The Resistance is being born from the ashes of the SSPX. It's a slow but steady process: as the SSPX decays, the Resistance grows and continues more and more to take its place.

:applause:

Croixalist · « **Reply #94 on:** December 23, 2016, 02:59:41 AM »

The Novus Ordo turned the Sacrifice of the Mass from a great Citadel housing the Holy Eucharist into a trailer park right smack in the middle of Tornado Alley. It is a Mass exposed to the elements of a fallen society. The further we get from VII, the more wreckage and roofless RVs clutter the landscape. That is not to say there won't be survivors: those who manage to avoid committing sacrilege and prepare their souls as best they can to receive the sacrament in the absence of all the missing prayers and graces. There will always be streams of refugees coming in from those areas. It's easy (for me at least) to forget how daunting it is to try to find the right TLM group, much less stay in one spot.

I think Bishop Williamson was trying to address the issue from a survivor standpoint when he made those comments way back. The problem with that from my perspective is that not all NO Catholics who come in are looking to rigorously analyze the situation; some people are coiled springs of emotional reaction just looking for an excuse to backslide. This could have been the case with the woman with the shaky voice. I believe it might have been less of a reflection of His Excellency's true position on the NO than an attempt to help keep an unstable person from panicking about their current situation. Still, by emphasizing the NO's validity over its illicit nature, his advice was destined to create more confusion than reassurance.

His belief that Eucharistic Miracles can and do occur in NO Masses ought to be far less controversial though. He has made every indication that he thinks these miracles are a warning to Catholics about the reality they are treating so casually, rather than a validation of everything VII. You can't have a sacrilege if there isn't anything sacred to start with.

With all the chaos pressing down on Tradition at the moment, I'm particularly impressed that Bishop Williamson and his Resistance confreres aren't running the show like cult leaders who demand allegiance ahead of everything else and that is reassuring... especially considering what has shaken loose over the past few years!

John Grace · « **Reply #95 on:** December 23, 2016, 04:59:15 AM »

Something that I was alluding to earlier in posts here. The article requires paying a subscription

Church to use Pope’s Irish visit for last stand on abortion
https://www.businesspost.ie/news/church-use-popes-irish-visit-last-stand-abortion-374264

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‘We’ll run a much stronger campaign than on gαy marriage,’ says Eamon Martin

Their last stand will be crushed. The sheep will scatter. The only way I see forward is the guerrilla warfare outlined by Bishop Williamson. Small groups of combatants here and there. Three years ago the pro-life groups mobilised 60,000 people from a population of several million. This year they mobilised about 5,000 people in Belfast.

If these groups do not take the correct approach they will demoralise supporters and bankrupt themselves which the enemies want.

The guerrilla warfare might seem like madness but as The O'Rahilly said

"It is madness, but it is glorious madness."

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #96 on:** November 21, 2017, 03:33:56 PM »

In light of his recent passing (Fr. Fulham), this post and others like it take on new significance.
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It would seem Fr. P. had been looking for another priest he could make second in command so he eventually settled on Fr. Hewko:
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Quote from: curioustrad on December 20, 2016, 04:13:54 PM

I don't expect + Williamson to do everything but I would have joined had he started something concrete. I don't know or have contact with + Faure so I haven't thought about that.

As for Fr. P - he called me 2 years ago and started telling me that + Williamson was "controlled".
The reason as he explained to me was that he wanted + Williamson to do something as well but he was unwilling - there was something more but I cannot remember it now.

BTW if you also check passed posts you'll discover that I originated the expression "Calamity Joe" well before Pfeifferville went off the rails. Having been in seminary with him I knew inexorably where that would go. He is not a leader and he lacks self-discipline. It was he who tried to get me to join up - but with him as C-in-C - forget that !

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C-in-C would refer to Commander-in-Chief.
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I offered my not inconsiderable library to Fr. P who said his seminarians didn't need books. I recently related that to Fr. Chazal who wants them for his seminary in the Philippines. So any time he's ready he can come and get them.

As to skulls - that was said of priests (at diaconal retreat) it gave me pause for thought. Of bishops I heard it said that at the general judgment every bishop will be looking for someone else to put his miter on.

If you don't mind I'll PM you a copy of a message I shared with someone else last night because it may help you better understand some issues.

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Speaking of his "not inconsiderable library," does anyone know what has become of that?
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If his seminarians don't need books, then how are they going to learn to protect the Faith of Catholics?
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