Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Distinguish, Discriminate (Read 16709 times)

noOneImportant · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2016, 03:15:03 PM »

Quote from: magdalena

Anyhow, it's enough already. How many times have we had to endure an EC on the credibility of the Novus Ordo by H.E. Williamson? In all due respect, he should move on and quit trying to convince his readership of the value therein. Like Merry so rightly put it: If you want to go to the Novus Ordo, just go. Don't look for permission from the True Catholic Church to do so.

Given the number of people making comments like this one or worse, I'd say he should keep on the topic for quite some time.

Cantarella · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2016, 03:42:55 PM »

Quote from: magdalena

Anyhow, it's enough already. How many times have we had to endure an EC on the credibility of the Novus Ordo by H.E. Williamson? In all due respect, he should move on and quit trying to convince his readership of the value therein. Like Merry so rightly put it: If you want to go to the Novus Ordo, just go. Don't look for permission from the True Catholic Church to do so.

I agree. I do not know why Bishop Williamson keeps doing this, especially now when the SSPX has sunk and when traditionalists more than ever need re-assurance that true Tradition is alive and well. Tradition is ineffectual if the NOM is still an option. I wonder if these very same comments were attributed to Bishop Fellay instead, then what would these Resisters say? It seems to me, there is a double standard here.

Cristera · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2016, 05:11:15 PM »

From Non Possumus blog:

-Minute 6:46 “There have been eucharistic miracles with the novus ordo mass”:
Here the critics implicitly claim that in the Novus Ordo (modern) mass cannot be some miracle. It is a logical fallacy: M. Miracles are made by the power of God to prove the truth or kindness of something . m.: The New Mass is bad. C.: Then, it cannot be any miracles in the new mass. About the minor I distinguish : the rite of the Mass celebrated according to the Novus Ordo is a bad thing, I grant; the new Mass validly celebrated, as in this mass is verified the Sacrament and exist Eucharistic Sacrifice is something equally bad, I deny it ; whereby the fallacy is destroyed.
An eventual miracle in the new mass validly celebrated would confirm, for example, the catholic doctrine about the real presence of Crist in the consecrated species, not the pretended kindness of the “bastard rite.”
Even more, the prophecy is an intellectual miracle. Caifas really prophesied, but not because God wanted to prove the moral kindness of Caifas through a miracle.

-Minute 8:56 “There are cases when even the Novus Ordo Mass can be attended with an effect of building one´s faith instead of losing it”:
The Bishop is answering to a crying woman that said attends both, the tridentine mass and the new mass. Bp. Williamson doesn't want to give a blunt response with the purpose of “not put out the smoldering wick” or “to break the broken reed”. That explain some inaccuracies, the use of the argument “ad hominem” and the central perspective in subjective aspects (concerning the conscience) of the answer.
An example between many: A jew, a freemason, or a protestant start going to the new mass of his parish: this is going to get him away from God always? The obvious answer is no, in fact all of us know cases of some traditionalists that at the beginning of their conversion to the Catholicism, they used to go to the new mass. A blameless catholic who objectively ignores that it’s always illicit to participate actively in the new mass, as can be the case of the person who made the question; always and necessarily he's going to suffer a damage of his faith for actively participating in that mass with the right intention and invincible ignorance? Obviously not.

-Minute 9:53 “Be very careful, be very careful with the Novus… stay away of the Novus Ordo, but exceptionally… if you´re watching and praying even there you may find the grace of God, if you do make use of it in order to sanctify your soul” [this part is missing: but exceptionally, if you’re watching and praying, even there you find the grace of God. If you do make use of it in order to sanctify your soul].
Like in the typical case of invincible ignorance. Do we need to maintain that God deny all graces in a new mass validly celebrated, when the Sacrement is verified and constitutes a truly Eucharistic Sacrifice?

-Minute 10:37 “Therefore, I would not say every single person must stay away from every single Novus Ordo Mass”:
Attending the subjective aspects or the conscience, what the Bishop says is correct, but not in the objective point of view. This is according to the traditional teaching of the Moral Theology, as it's proved the following quote of the Course of Moral Theology in the seminary (SSPX) of La Reja, Buenos Aires before the current crisis of the FSSPX [...]

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2016, 06:08:22 PM »

A simple answer to all this is that the novus ordo can have a valid consecration, and provide communion/grace for the faithful BUT...it is not a mass.

Because it's not a mass, yet it pretends to be, it is a sacrilege and an awful offense against Almighty God. Ergo, though there could be Eucharistic miracles because Christ is truly present, this does NOT mean God is pleased with the 'service'. Those who realize that the NOM is wrong, IN ANY CAPACITY, should avoid it, no ifs, ands or buts.

We can't offend God because of human respect.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #24 on:** December 17, 2016, 08:00:36 PM »

It's hard to agree/disagree with the "non possumus" article...the english translation is too jumbled.