Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Distinguish, Discriminate (Read 12127 times)

josefamenendez · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2016, 11:45:55 AM »

I'm probably one of the skulls full of mashed potatoes that don't get it 100%. I am trying.....

I feel the Bishop is trying to relay God's mercy ( a difficult task) for mankind to us, as we can't know the full extent of His Mystery , but we can only abide by the objective structure and doctrine that has been given us by our Lord through His Church. And that's good and we must abide by that. Traditionalists can't "unknow" what we have come to know" (some one told me that)
Those who "know" can't accept what is outright wrong and faith destroying..( the NO)
But I am reminded of the scripture of the workers that are paid the same whether they work all day or for but an hour, and the Lord pays them the same. There was a lot of grumbling going on about that. I would have grumbled, too. Maybe these NO attendees exposed to this "Miracle" ( if it is true) will actually find "work" in these last hours.
Possibly, God, "writing straight with crooked lines" with a NO Eucharistic miracle (which is OUTSIDE of what we can accept reasonably) is a first step in pulling the truly spiritually hungry NO Catholics into acknowledgement of Reality is and what the Church is supposed to be, and the how the True Sacrifice of the Mass must be a place of Worship and Adoration and not a hootananny or "feel good" effeminate "hour of power". Eventually these people may no longer tolerate the lack of honor and respect for what in that one instance was proof of Our Lord's Real Presence. Then the learning begins. It may be an instance of Grace that can prompt some of them to the Truth and how God wants to be worshippped properly. Some may eventually get to Tradition.
Isn't that how many of us have gotten to where we are right now? ( Not from a "Eucharistic Miracle", but from an eventual disgust at the irreverence and banality directed at what we assumed(Transubstantiation) was taking place? )

I'll keep mashing...

Cera · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2016, 02:00:12 PM »

Quote from: Matto

There seems to be a few Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo. In each case the host turned red and then they sent it to scientists and the scientists said the red part of the host seemed to be human flesh and blood. There seems to me to be several possibilities. First, the people involved are lying. Second, the miracles are deceptions of Satan meant to fool the elect. Third, they are true miracles from God. I myself believe they are either miracles from God or false miracles from Satan. We all know Satan is very powerful and can work wonders so just because something seems miraculous it doesn't mean it is from God. But it seems that Bishop Williamson is assuming that these wonders come from God.

If you have read Bishop Williamson's earlier comments on the Eucharistic miracles at N.O. churches, you will know that he assumed nothing. He did his due diligence, including researching the fruits of the miracles, which were consistent with other Eucharistic miracles: increased reception of the sacraments, increased attendance at daily Mass, etc.

Reading the comments, it is apparent that many, if not most, posters failed to actually read what the good Bishop wrote. Those are the ones who wrote the knee-jerk responses instead of struggling with the difficulty of trying to understand why God would perform a miracle in what most of us think of as a psuedo-sacrament and an offense to Him. Maybe He did it to humble the proud.

Cera · « **Reply #17 on:** December 17, 2016, 02:07:00 PM »

How can we explain Our Lady of Akita appearing to the deaf nun? This was in a N.O. chapel. There was no Latin Mass in Japan at that time. Maybe it was Our Lady's way of saying that they are her children too.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2016, 02:32:07 PM »

It is not my job, or your job, or +W's job to try to explain 'why' God has allowed this or that in the novus ordo, or to what degree it's still catholic. It's not 100% catholic, so it's anathema. End of story. Explaining what % of Catholicism is in the novus ordo is a discussion for theologians and philosophers, and even then, it's not worth much time. All this talk about miracles and 'partial good' is pointless, unless you're telling these people to STOP going, IMMEDIATELY, and come to tradition.

God works through all false religions to try to convert people. But they can't be saved in a false religion. They have to leave it. And this must be THE MESSAGE they receive about the Truth. Otherwise, we Catholics will be held accountable for only preaching part of the Faith.

It's apparent that +W enjoys theoretical theology. Nothing wrong with that. But if theory isn't balanced by action, or by practical advice, then it can lose its purpose, since ideas are meant to be put into action. I feel that +W is stuck in a theoretical debate with sedevecantists and modernists and his end conclusion might be years away.

OldMerry · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2016, 02:40:52 PM »

Maybe that's not Our Lady.

0r maybe if it is Our Lady, maybe they don't tell all she said. Maybe she also said for this convent to get rid of the Novus Ordo, or to go where there are true priests and the True Mass.

With the Novus Ordo, remember that Anton LaVey, head of the Church of Satan in California, said that people should know that the changes in the Church came from the devil, just from what has happened to the Mass "and to the sisters"! These sisters are still Novus Ordo and dress accordingly.

We are bound by the Church's laws and rubrics as pertains the Holy Mass and our Catholic and sacramental life. Not a locution, a miracle or whatever in Japan or anywhere else -- Poland, for instance -- that is renegade in the Modernist Church. If you want the ok to go to the Novus Ordo, just go. Don't wait. Because the true. official Catholic Church will tell you that you can't, and will always tell you that you can't.

noOneImportant · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2016, 03:15:03 PM »

Quote from: magdalena

Anyhow, it's enough already. How many times have we had to endure an EC on the credibility of the Novus Ordo by H.E. Williamson? In all due respect, he should move on and quit trying to convince his readership of the value therein. Like Merry so rightly put it: If you want to go to the Novus Ordo, just go. Don't look for permission from the True Catholic Church to do so.

Given the number of people making comments like this one or worse, I'd say he should keep on the topic for quite some time.

Cantarella · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2016, 03:42:55 PM »

Quote from: magdalena

Anyhow, it's enough already. How many times have we had to endure an EC on the credibility of the Novus Ordo by H.E. Williamson? In all due respect, he should move on and quit trying to convince his readership of the value therein. Like Merry so rightly put it: If you want to go to the Novus Ordo, just go. Don't look for permission from the True Catholic Church to do so.

I agree. I do not know why Bishop Williamson keeps doing this, especially now when the SSPX has sunk and when traditionalists more than ever need re-assurance that true Tradition is alive and well. Tradition is ineffectual if the NOM is still an option. I wonder if these very same comments were attributed to Bishop Fellay instead, then what would these Resisters say? It seems to me, there is a double standard here.

Cristera · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2016, 05:11:15 PM »

From Non Possumus blog:

-Minute 6:46 “There have been eucharistic miracles with the novus ordo mass”:
Here the critics implicitly claim that in the Novus Ordo (modern) mass cannot be some miracle. It is a logical fallacy: M. Miracles are made by the power of God to prove the truth or kindness of something . m.: The New Mass is bad. C.: Then, it cannot be any miracles in the new mass. About the minor I distinguish : the rite of the Mass celebrated according to the Novus Ordo is a bad thing, I grant; the new Mass validly celebrated, as in this mass is verified the Sacrament and exist Eucharistic Sacrifice is something equally bad, I deny it ; whereby the fallacy is destroyed.
An eventual miracle in the new mass validly celebrated would confirm, for example, the catholic doctrine about the real presence of Crist in the consecrated species, not the pretended kindness of the “bastard rite.”
Even more, the prophecy is an intellectual miracle. Caifas really prophesied, but not because God wanted to prove the moral kindness of Caifas through a miracle.

-Minute 8:56 “There are cases when even the Novus Ordo Mass can be attended with an effect of building one´s faith instead of losing it”:
The Bishop is answering to a crying woman that said attends both, the tridentine mass and the new mass. Bp. Williamson doesn't want to give a blunt response with the purpose of “not put out the smoldering wick” or “to break the broken reed”. That explain some inaccuracies, the use of the argument “ad hominem” and the central perspective in subjective aspects (concerning the conscience) of the answer.
An example between many: A Jєω, a freemason, or a protestant start going to the new mass of his parish: this is going to get him away from God always? The obvious answer is no, in fact all of us know cases of some traditionalists that at the beginning of their conversion to the Catholicism, they used to go to the new mass. A blameless catholic who objectively ignores that it’s always illicit to participate actively in the new mass, as can be the case of the person who made the question; always and necessarily he's going to suffer a damage of his faith for actively participating in that mass with the right intention and invincible ignorance? Obviously not.

-Minute 9:53 “Be very careful, be very careful with the Novus… stay away of the Novus Ordo, but exceptionally… if you´re watching and praying even there you may find the grace of God, if you do make use of it in order to sanctify your soul” [this part is missing: but exceptionally, if you’re watching and praying, even there you find the grace of God. If you do make use of it in order to sanctify your soul].
Like in the typical case of invincible ignorance. Do we need to maintain that God deny all graces in a new mass validly celebrated, when the Sacrement is verified and constitutes a truly Eucharistic Sacrifice?

-Minute 10:37 “Therefore, I would not say every single person must stay away from every single Novus Ordo Mass”:
Attending the subjective aspects or the conscience, what the Bishop says is correct, but not in the objective point of view. This is according to the traditional teaching of the Moral Theology, as it's proved the following quote of the Course of Moral Theology in the seminary (SSPX) of La Reja, Buenos Aires before the current crisis of the FSSPX [...]

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2016, 06:08:22 PM »

A simple answer to all this is that the novus ordo can have a valid consecration, and provide communion/grace for the faithful BUT...it is not a mass.

Because it's not a mass, yet it pretends to be, it is a sacrilege and an awful offense against Almighty God. Ergo, though there could be Eucharistic miracles because Christ is truly present, this does NOT mean God is pleased with the 'service'. Those who realize that the NOM is wrong, IN ANY CAPACITY, should avoid it, no ifs, ands or buts.

We can't offend God because of human respect.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #24 on:** December 17, 2016, 08:00:36 PM »

It's hard to agree/disagree with the "non possumus" article...the english translation is too jumbled.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #25 on:** December 17, 2016, 08:30:11 PM »

Quote

When a priest is asked for permission to go to the Novus Ordo, that is a clear sign the person isn't a Trad to begin with, and therefore doesn't "get it". The priest will believe that for them, it's better to keep the Faith AT ALL COSTS than to adhere to some "zero tolerance" policy on the N.O.M. and have them lose the Faith.

Matthew- If the NOM causes one to lose the Faith, or at least adds to confusion, then wouldn't a 'zero tolerance' policy be good? Sorta like a person who goes into detox to get off heroine?

Quote

After all, if they're asking to attend the Novus Ordo, they are clearly weak, needy and desperate (like a starving person reaching for a rat, and asking if he can eat it FUR AND ALL without cooking it first)

If a starving person is asking for a poisoned apple to eat, you don't give them the poisoned apple.

Quote

Which is more important: the Mass, or the Faith?
Answer: the Faith. The Mass exists for the Faith, and not the Faith for the Mass.

The Faith is more important, which is why you tell the person to forgo the false, sacrilegious, pretend mass and find a good one. It's probable they are "weak, needy" BECAUSE OF the novus ordo, not because of the lack of it. Better to avoid the novus ordo than go it. No exceptions.

St Ignatius · « **Reply #26 on:** December 17, 2016, 09:03:50 PM »

Quote from: Cristera

-Minute 10:37 “Therefore, I would not say every single person must stay away from every single Novus Ordo Mass”:
Attending the subjective aspects or the conscience, what the Bishop says is correct, but not in the objective point of view. This is according to the traditional teaching of the Moral Theology, as it's proved the following quote of the Course of Moral Theology in the seminary (SSPX) of La Reja, Buenos Aires before the current crisis of the FSSPX [...]

Thank you for this translation Cristera...

This is the whole premise of the bishop's argument, of which I agree...

If this means I'm guilty of "Hero worship," then throw me into the basket of "deplorables" with Matthew! I pity those who don't understand the bishop.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #27 on:** December 17, 2016, 10:14:09 PM »

Then you, and the Bishop, have principles which are subjective. Yet, the N.O.M. is wrong, not subjectively (i.e. based on circuмstances), but it is wrong intrinsically (i.e. based on what it is, which is anti-catholic).

Defender · « **Reply #28 on:** December 18, 2016, 08:32:13 AM »

You can't say that there are "good parts" in the new mass. There are only "vestiges."

See the explanation of this in Father Gaudron's, Catechism of the Crisis in the Church (below)

• Isn't it true that the schismatic communities, or even the heretical communities, conserve some elements of sanctification?

It is true that the Protestants conserve Sacred Scripture (more or less altered), and that the Eastern schismatics conserve the Sacraments. But traditional theology did not designate these realities stolen from the Catholic Church as "elements of sanctification" or "elements of the Church," but rather as "vestiges" of the true religion.

• Is the replacement of the term "vestiges" by the term "elements of the Church" important?

This change of vocabulary is not innocent because the word vestiges expressed an important truth: the elements stolen from the Catholic Church by the separated communities by that very fact cease to be a living reality. They become "ruins."

Source: http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2702

John Grace · « **Reply #29 on:** December 18, 2016, 01:22:36 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

We are all Trads, and none of us LIKE the Novus Ordo. Most of us would choose to stay home rather than attend it (myself included).

But which of us can truly say what God thinks of the Novus Ordo Mass -- or even speak with 100% certainty about its validity? No one.

Sure, we need to avoid it -- but that doesn't mean we can pontificate about the specifics of how bad it is, or in what circuмstances.

All we know with THAT kind of certainty is that:

1. The Catholic Faith is the one true religion, founded by God Himself.
2. We must each save our eternal souls, crisis or no crisis.
3. The Catholic Mass is the largest source of grace there is -- being the sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself.
4. The Tridentine Mass has been canonized as good and holy FOR ALL TIME and can always be used by both priests and faithful without scruple.
5. The Novus Ordo Mass -- even the official promulgated version, in Latin -- has clear defects and problems, and is therefore DOUBTFUL.
6. If that weren't enough, we have the evidence of 50 years of APOSTASY (there is no other accurate word for it) by the mass of Catholics who went along with the Novus Ordo Mass.
7. Our Lord taught, "By their fruits you shall know them."
8. Catholic theology teaches that one may never choose a doubtful means over a certain means.

That is my line of reasoning why I will never attend the Novus Ordo, no matter what.
I am plenty hard on the Novus Ordo, but for all the RIGHT reasons. Not because they have cooties, or because they don't make me FEEL right. Nor do I refrain because my cult leader tells me to, or out of peer pressure from other Trads.

So let's remember our priorities, and keep sight of the big picture.

:applause: