Here is Quo Primum - where does it say exceptions include decrees of the Holy See?  I am talking about other than the Dominican rite, and some few dioceses whose rite of Mass was 200 years old or more.  (And now those may not even exist.)  The vast majority of Roman, Western rite Catholics used, attended, offered the Tridentine Latin Mass according to Pius V.  The Mass "ends" with the Last Gospel.  At that point, popes are free to add or remove prayers - the way the Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael prayer, or 3 Hail Marys were added.    

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
QUO PRIMUM
[Note:  The following is an English translation of the Apostolic Constitution “Quo Primum” promulgated in 1570 by Pope St. Pius V ordering the use of the Tridentine Mass for all future time.  It appeared in Latin in every official Altar Missal from 1570 until the changes of Vatican II, then it was conveniently dropped.]

 Pope St. Pius V - July 14, 1570

From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all our thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God's help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose. For, besides other decrees of the sacred Council of Trent, there were stipulations for Us to revise and re-edit the sacred books: the Catechism, the Missal and the Breviary. With the Catechism published for the instruction of the faithful, by God's help, and the Breviary thoroughly revised for the worthy praise of God, in order that the Missal and Breviary may be in perfect harmony, as fitting and proper - for it is most becoming that there be in the Church only one appropriate manner of reciting the Psalms and only one rite for the celebration of Mass - We deemed it necessary to give our immediate attention to what still remained to be done, viz, the re-editing of the Missal as soon as possible.

Hence, We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or amended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further amended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.

Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.

This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding.

All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.

We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
 
Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us. We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present docuмent cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription - except, however, if more than two hundred years' standing.

It is Our will, therefore, and by the same authority, We decree that, after We publish this constitution and the edition of the Missal, the priests of the Roman Curia are, after thirty days, obliged to chant or read the Mass according to it; all others south of the Alps, after three months; and those beyond the Alps either within six months or whenever the Missal is available for sale. Wherefore, in order that the Missal be preserved incorrupt throughout the whole world and kept free of flaws and errors, the penalty for nonobservance for printers, whether mediately or immediately subject to Our dominion, and that of the Holy Roman Church, will be the forfeiting of their books and a fine of one hundred gold ducats, payable ipso facto to the Apostolic Treasury. Further, as for those located in other parts of the world, the penalty is excommunication latae sententiae, and such other penalties as may in Our judgment be imposed; and We decree by this law that they must not dare or presume either to print or to publish or to sell, or in any way to accept books of this nature without Our approval and consent, or without the express consent of the Apostolic Commissaries of those places, who will be appointed by Us. Said printer must receive a standard Missal and agree faithfully with it and in no wise vary from the Roman Missal of the large type (secundum magnum impressionem).

Accordingly, since it would be difficult for this present pronouncement to be sent to all parts of the Christian world and simultaneously come to light everywhere, We direct that it be, as usual, posted and published at the doors of the Basilica of the Prince of the Apostles, also at the Apostolic Chancery, and on the street at Campo Flora; furthermore, We direct that printed copies of this same edict signed by a notary public and made official by an ecclesiastical dignitary possess the same indubitable validity everywhere and in every nation, as if Our manuscript were shown there. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should any person venture to do so, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
Given at St. Peter's in the year of the Lord's Incarnation, 1570, on the 14th of July of the Fifth year of Our Pontificate.  

Here is Quo Primum - where does it say exceptions include decrees of the Holy See?

First, you've got a bogus translation posted.  You've put up the infamous one that states the Missal is a "new rite."  

And the papal bull says "notwithstanding" among other things, the other churches, immemorial customs over 200 years as well as decrees of the Holy See, as well as  
special constitutions, synodal councils. etc.  

Quo Primum also forbids rubrical changes and rubrical changes occurred frequently in the post Quo Primum period, notably concerning Incensing.  


Are you going to address Pius XII in Mediator Dei?  Or not?

"the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification."
 

Another point to be made concerning the original subject of the discussion.  Even though Judaism at the time of Christ was corrupt and opposed to Jesus. Caiaphas was still given the gift of Prophecy.  God was still operating through His corrupt and unbelieving clergy.  

And after this crisis, there may be a new Creed that rules out explicitly the major errors of the day like universalism or the denial of miracles or the literalness of Genesis.  

Forgive me if I'm not getting your drift, but are you saying, Gerard from FE, that you think that "the literalness of Genesis" is a "major error of the day?"  

Or are you saying that the denial of the literalness of Genesis is an error?

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Quote from: J.Paul

If there is real and legitimate grace issuing forth from the Novus Ordo religion, what valid justification do these people for rejecting the conciliar sacraments and not joining the conciliar entity, as they in fact see it as being the True Church?

What one can see is that in both the SSPX and in the resistance so called, firm principles which over the years we have been conditioned to believe were being held and defended are being abandoned or they were never really there, and we have been taken in by an illusion.

Michael Davies used to say that Catholics always had recourse to "Immemorial Custom."  

Another argument is the development of the liturgy as organic vs. the committee based changes.  If the committee engaged in archealogism, and the Novus Ordo reflects genuinely the practices of the early Church, what was holy and real and legitimate grace flowing then, would flow now to those of good will.  

If Ford were to suddenly start manufacturing "Model T" and "Model A" cars again, they would be genuine Ford cars and you could get from point a to point b just as a much slower pace, with less safety features with the odds of a breakdown far greater than if taking a more advanced car.

You are just as much in a Ford as you are as if you are in a classic Crown Victoria.  But with the Crown Victoria, you go faster, safer and go with more confidence in your arrival.  

ABSOLUTELY! That is our greater claim as baptized Catholics. That is why the Ambrosian Rite was restorored after having been "unjustly suppressed". Not only we have Trent and Quo primum to back this up but Msgr. Gamber and Our lady of Fatima.

"Liturgy and faith are interdependent. This is why a new rite was created, a rite that in many ways reflects the bias of the new (modernists) theology. The traditional liturgy simply could not be allowed to exist in its established form because it was permeated with the truths of the traditional faith and the ancient forms of piety. For this reason alone, much was abolished and new rites, prayers and hymns [new saints] were introduced, as were the new readings from Scripture, which conveniently left out those passages that did not square with the teachings of modern theology--for example, references to a God who judges and punishes." (p. 100)

“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a Divine warning against the ѕυιcιdє of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul…I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the true Faith of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past.”

Until the "resistance" understand this, they will not defend anything That is why the SSPX has shamelessly failed.

Quote

And after this crisis, there may be a new Creed that rules out explicitly the major errors of the day like universalism or the denial of miracles or the literalness of Genesis.  

Forgive me if I'm not getting your drift, but are you saying, Gerard from FE, that you think that "the literalness of Genesis" is a "major error of the day?"  

Or are you saying that the denial of the literalness of Genesis is an error?

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Sorry about that.  I meant denial of the literal understanding of Genesis is a big error nowadays.  

Well said. I think, though, that the TLM hadn't really changed much for at least 800 years, prior to the 1962 missal. According to Msgr. Gamber (if I recall correctly), even Pope Pius V changed very little.

I would also add that Pope Paul Vl had the idea (or he was convinced by Bugnini) that it would benefit the Catholic faithful if they could understand everything in the Mass, in the vernacular. I think that Paul Vl sincerely believed this. He also believed that it would be helpful to "Calvinize" the Mass, in order to be appealing to Protestants. The result was a dull, boring, and dumbed-down Mass, a skeleton of its former self. God could have stopped this from happening, but He didn't.

What's interesting is that many NOM parishes are now adding at least some Latin to their NOM. They realize that the Mass is deficient, and they are trying to add a bit of mystery to it, IMO. There's absolutely no mystery in the NOM, and no room for contemplation, but that's intrinsic in its design. Everything is meant to be completely understood in a verbal sense.

Having attended the NOM until quite recently, I saw that there are devout souls who attend it. Not many, but at least a few. I don't think that God would completely abandon the majority of Catholics (who attend the NOM). I think that the Eucharistic miracles are strong evidence of this. Have there been any accounts of Eucharistic miracles in the TLM in the last 40 years or so, does anyone know?

I think you are correct.  I'm just pointing out that people tend to exaggerate the disciplinary power of Pius V beyond what he intended and bind other Popes.  But later Popes made changes anyway and Pius V according to that exaggerated reading didn't leave any room for any changes.  Small or big, it's the same: change, it's just the degree that is different  

I think a bigger problem is what Pope Benedict XVI did in trying to claim they are two forms of the same rite.  I'd want to see that argued out a bit.  I don't know if BXVI tried to base that on some kernel of common language but I think the Novus Ordo is de facto a new rite, which Popes have the power to introduce.  Even weak ones that will hopefully dwindle away.  

I've only heard of a few miracles associated with Archbishop LeFebvre and Charles Coulombe has mentioned a few different things happening at trad chapels that he was extremely skeptical about.  I honestly haven't heard of any euchartistic miracles, but maybe trads don't need them.  The belief in the real presence is pretty strong in trad chapels. Miracles tend to strengthen flagging faith.