Author Topic: Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D. (Read 21568 times)

ihsv · « **Reply #40 on:** November 23, 2015, 05:49:17 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: ihsv

IF the purported miracle that +Williamson speaks of is true, the only thing it means is that that particular consecration was valid. It means nothing more. It is neither a seal of approval of the New Mass, nor is it a vindication of the new religion.

If the bolded is the case, then I have a question: are there any such miracles in the Orthodox Church (post the Great Schism) given the Catholic Church has always held their liturgy to be "valid".

I have no idea. I don't pay a great deal of attention to the Orthodox.

2Vermont · « **Reply #41 on:** November 23, 2015, 07:57:24 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

"True Mass, new mass, schismatic mass, satanic mass--it doesn't matter. If there is valid matter and form, and the celebrant is a valid priest and has the proper intention, then there is transubstantiation necessarily because all the Sacraments work ex opere operato. God must allow this to take effect because it is the way He designed the Sacraments and His veracity and holiness require that He obeys Himself."

Motorede, it does matter. A valid consecration, where transubstantiation occurs does NOT make the Mass automatically pleasing to God!! I hear this argument all the time by my "conservative novus ordo" relatives and by many trads and it shows a lack of understanding of the Mass, as a whole. The Consecration is NOT the only part of the Mass. The Consecration does NOT define the morality of the mass.

We must look and understand the Mass in a deeper way. We must distinguish between the validity/intention of the Consecration vs the validity/intention of the Mass. They are not the same; far from it. The novus ordo is wrong because it, as a WHOLE, is deficient in its purpose, nature and intention.

Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci covered all of this in their "Ottaviani Intervention" and so does Fr Wathen in his "The Great Sacrilege" and nothing has improved for anyone to now say it's "ok". The consecration may well be valid but the mass is not.

Again, are there Eucharistic miracles in the Orthodox Church post-Great Schism? After all, if validity is the only thing EM's confirm, then there should be many of these as well.

I have been trying to find Orthodox EM's online and can not find any. On the contrary, I find Orthodox Christians questioning the validity of Catholic EM's.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #42 on:** November 23, 2015, 08:03:14 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

+Put down your weapons. Facts are facts. A host was found. It was proven to be cardiac tissue. End of story. Who are we to judge God's will or His motive?

bzzzzz

No, not "end of story". How do you know this was God? How difficult would it be for the devil to obtain a little cardiac tissue?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #43 on:** November 23, 2015, 08:05:35 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

A valid consecration, where transubstantiation occurs does NOT make the Mass automatically pleasing to God!!

Except that if God were to work a miracle in relation to the New Mass, this would entail a tacit endorsement of the New Mass ... which IMO He would not do if it indeed displeases Him. Let me repeat. We do NOT draw theological conclusions from these things and they must be ignored.

covet truth · « **Reply #44 on:** November 23, 2015, 08:07:34 AM »

Quote from: stgobnait

Thank you for these posts, they have given me another perspective, I confess, I thought 'a trick of the devil' too, and when I read bergolio's name.. well.............

Maybe that's the key to understanding God's purpose in this particular miracle because now he is the Pope and he has seen and, therefore, KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt of the Real Presence. What he does going forward with this knowledge will determine the fate of his soul. God is a serious God and does not do these things without purpose. Time will tell if it converts him.