Author Topic: Eleison Comments CDXC (490)  (Read 8612 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
« on: December 03, 2016, 12:30:40 AM »
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  • NOM Miracles?

    Traditional Catholics must be broad of mind –
    Not only faithlessness they left behind.

    In the United Sates last year there arose a serious controversy as to whether God can work miracles within the framework of the Novus Ordo Mass. Now if God does work supernatural miracles, it is obviously for them to be believed in, so that they will strengthen people’s supernatural faith. And if he wants something outside of the natural order to be believed in, he is obviously going to provide enough evidence, like Lazarus walking out of his tomb in front of a large crowd of bystanders. And in this respect the most convincing evidence is of a material and physical sort, such as can in no way be the product of any human mind (however pious), like the fireworks of the sun in Fatima in October, 1917. Then what is the material and physical evidence of a eucharistic miracle having taken place in any Novus Ordo Mass?

    One such miracle is alleged to have taken place in the parish church of Sokulka, Eastern Poland. On October 12, 2008, a priest, ordained five years ago by a Polish bishop consecrated in 1980, dropped a Sacred Host on the altar step while distributing Holy Communion. He stopped to pick it up and placed it in the small vessel containing water next to the Tabernacle. After Mass it was locked inside the sacristy safe for the Host to dissolve in the water, so that the Real Presence would no longer be there and the water could be safely discarded. This procedure is altogether normal for such accidents in the Catholic liturgy.

    But when on October 19 a parish Sister went to check on the dissolving Host, she saw in its centre some matter intensely red in colour, like a blood clot. She immediately informed the parish priest who came with other priests to observe what looked like a piece of living flesh. All observers were amazed. Next came the local Archbishop, of Bialystok, with several diocesan officials. All of them were deeply moved. By the Archbishop’s instructions, on October 30 the Host w as removed from the water, transferred onto a small corporal and placed in the Tabernacle to dry out. To this day it retains the form of a blood clot.

    On January 7, 2009, a sample from the Host was taken to be examined by two pathomorphologists, separately, at the nearby Medical University of Bialystok. Their unanimous judgment, but independent of one another, was that “of all the tissues of living organisms, the sample most resembles human myocardial tissue,” from the left ventricle of the heart, typical for a living person in a state of agony. Furthermore both pathologists found, presumably under their microscopes, that the fibres of the myocardial tissue and the structure of the bread were so tightly bonded together that any possibility of a human fabrication was ruled out. On January 29 this material and physical evidence was presented to the Metropolitan Curia in Bialystok, where the Church’s official judgment upon the supernatural origin of the oc currence is patiently awaited. In that wait, said the Archbishop in a sermon of October, 2009, decisive will be the spiritual fruits among Catholics. Already there has been a significant rise in the piety and religious practice of local Catholics, and from abroad there have been hundreds of pilgrimages, with numerous miracles of healing and conversion also taking place.

    If the material evidence is to be believed, then in Sokulka God worked one more in a long series down the ages of eucharistic miracles to help souls to believe in something normally difficult enough to believe in, namely that he is Really Present beneath the appearances, once consecrated, of bread and wine. But how is that possible when Traditional Catholics know that the New Mass is the single major cause of the Church’s destruction by loss of faith since Vatican II? An answer may be that the Sacred Heart, knowing that the shepherds were mainly responsible for the ambiguous NOM, refused to abandon his sheep, a nd continues to feed them with what is still Catholic amidst the ambiguity. And amidst all the Newchurch’s relative carelessness in dealing with the Holy Eucharist, the Sokulka event is also a daunting reminder to shepherds and sheep alike – “Remember whom you are handling – it is I, your God!”

    Kyrie eleison.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #1 on: December 03, 2016, 12:35:31 AM »
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  • I love his Eminence, but the part where the Bishop was consecrated in 1980 was a tough one for me.


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #2 on: December 03, 2016, 12:38:26 AM »
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  • Oops, I mean his Excellency.. its gettin late here

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #3 on: December 03, 2016, 09:39:28 AM »
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  • Well, after this one, I expect all the usual suspects to come out of the woodwork, bleating and braying with renewed intensity.

    Offline Alexandria

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #4 on: December 03, 2016, 03:34:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: josefamenendez
    I love his Eminence, but the part where the Bishop was consecrated in 1980 was a tough one for me.


    Why?  Are you one of those who thinks the novus ordo Church has no valid priests and bishops?  


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #5 on: December 03, 2016, 05:54:23 PM »
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  • I have no authority to make that determination, but I certainly have doubts.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #6 on: December 03, 2016, 11:08:44 PM »
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  •                        
                                            TEAM-TAG POPES

                                      (Dig that sly handshake)



        "Hey Giovanni!
                          Weeza gonna be saints one day... miracles and all"


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline chrstnoel1

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #7 on: December 04, 2016, 06:42:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Incredulous
                           
                                            TEAM-TAG POPES

                                      (Dig that sly handshake)



        "Hey Giovanni!
                          Weeza gonna be saints one day... miracles and all"




     :laugh1: :laugh1:


    Offline Defender

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #8 on: December 04, 2016, 12:49:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    Well, after this one, I expect all the usual suspects to come out of the woodwork, bleating and braying with renewed intensity.


    ...while everyone else sticks their head in the sand.

    Offline mw2016

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #9 on: December 04, 2016, 01:46:33 PM »
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  • Even though I love and respect Fr. Pfeiffer, I suppose he will probably blow a gasket upon reading this EC, and use it as more ammunition to attack Bp. Williamson. However, he will be dead wrong on this.

    I was taught in my catechism that there are three things necessary for a Sacrament to be valid:

    Proper matter
    Proper form
    Proper intent

    So, therefore, a valid consecration certainly can take place in a N.O. Mass, though it may be increasingly less common due to the abuses and state of things in the N.O.

    I also know that God is Almighty, and He can work a miracle wherever and however He sees fit.

    So, anyone who wants to "bray" about Bp. Williamson's letter really needs to pipe down, IMO.

    Offline Memento

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #10 on: December 04, 2016, 03:28:36 PM »
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  • ["And amidst all the Newchurch’s relative carelessness in dealing with the Holy Eucharist, the Sokulka event is also a daunting reminder to shepherds and sheep alike – “Remember whom you are handling – it is I, your God!” His Excellency Bishop Williamson

    And I will remember too, and if God is truly present in the Novus Ordo consecrated host, please God keep me from trampling Him for I love Him and no longer wish to hurt hurt Him.

    Therefore, when all the sacrileges stop : the honoring of man, the environment, and some ambitious god in the liturgy,  hand clapping and hand holdinG, chit-chatting and show and tell while sitting  in front of the Tabernacle , ill or non informed people possibly in a state of mortal sin receiving the host, and careless touching and dropping the consecrated hosts, I might consider entering a Novus Ordo Church.

    But then again, if all those changes took place,  it might once again look and be the Catholic Church and my peace would be complete. I could worship God without worrying of offending Him with all the blather that goes on in an NO mass, let alone trampling on Him.


    Offline Pilar

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #11 on: December 04, 2016, 09:32:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Even though I love and respect Fr. Pfeiffer, I suppose he will probably blow a gasket upon reading this EC, and use it as more ammunition to attack Bp. Williamson. However, he will be dead wrong on this.

    I was taught in my catechism that there are three things necessary for a Sacrament to be valid:

    Proper matter
    Proper form
    Proper intent

    So, therefore, a valid consecration certainly can take place in a N.O. Mass, though it may be increasingly less common due to the abuses and state of things in the N.O.

    I also know that God is Almighty, and He can work a miracle wherever and however He sees fit.

    So, anyone who wants to "bray" about Bp. Williamson's letter really needs to pipe down, IMO.


    It seems that there have been a few Eucharistic miracles in the N.O. And why not? They probably need reminding more than anyone else, what it is they are dealing with. I agree that there can be doubt about validity and I agree that there can be valid consecrations in the N.O.

    Offline Pilar

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #12 on: December 04, 2016, 09:35:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    ["And amidst all the Newchurch’s relative carelessness in dealing with the Holy Eucharist, the Sokulka event is also a daunting reminder to shepherds and sheep alike – “Remember whom you are handling – it is I, your God!” His Excellency Bishop Williamson

    And I will remember too, and if God is truly present in the Novus Ordo consecrated host, please God keep me from trampling Him for I love Him and no longer wish to hurt hurt Him.

    Therefore, when all the sacrileges stop : the honoring of man, the environment, and some ambitious god in the liturgy,  hand clapping and hand holdinG, chit-chatting and show and tell while sitting  in front of the Tabernacle , ill or non informed people possibly in a state of mortal sin receiving the host, and careless touching and dropping the consecrated hosts, I might consider entering a Novus Ordo Church.

    But then again, if all those changes took place,  it might once again look and be the Catholic Church and my peace would be complete. I could worship God without worrying of offending Him with all the blather that goes on in an NO mass, let alone trampling on Him.


    There is no need to enter into a Novus Ordo Church for Mass. And the Mass is only one part of the vast problem with the Novus Ordo. The Catechism, the Sacraments and almost everything else is no longer without error.

    It's almost like it is a different Church...

    Offline AJNC

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #13 on: December 05, 2016, 04:48:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Even though I love and respect Fr. Pfeiffer, I suppose he will probably blow a gasket upon reading this EC, and use it as more ammunition to attack Bp. Williamson. However, he will be dead wrong on this.

    I was taught in my catechism that there are three things necessary for a Sacrament to be valid:

    Proper matter
    Proper form
    Proper intent

    So, therefore, a valid consecration certainly can take place in a N.O. Mass, though it may be increasingly less common due to the abuses and state of things in the N.O.

    I also know that God is Almighty, and He can work a miracle wherever and however He sees fit.

    So, anyone who wants to "bray" about Bp. Williamson's letter really needs to pipe down, IMO.


    More than 10 years ago a senior Traditional Catholic here told us that the issue of validity, matter, form and intent is no longer taught in the Novus Ordo seminaries - at least the ones in India. But here is what Vatican II says:

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

    7. To accomplish so great a work, Christ is always present in His Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the sacrifice of the Mass, not only in the person of His minister, "the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross" [20], but especially under the Eucharistic species. By His power He is present in the sacraments, so that when a man baptizes it is really Christ Himself who baptizes [21]. He is present in His word, since it is He Himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church. He is present, lastly, when the Church prays and sings, for He promised: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20) .

    Offline Wessex

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    Eleison Comments CDXC (490)
    « Reply #14 on: December 05, 2016, 06:45:49 AM »
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  • I am sure many including some of the bishops's friends will not be with him on this one. What use are independent apostolates if spiritual guidance can be had in the mainstream church? The bishop weaves in and out of institutions with abandon making a case that there is something good in any endeavour whether divinely instituted or not. Simple souls will be more confused than ever, citing the pointlessness of removing themselves from the mainstream because in the past some aging French archbishop had a personal beef with Rome. Or so they will conclude. No doubt Menzingen would not dare go in the direction of Novus Ordo miracles for fear of losing her audience overnight. But the bishop is free to float about exercising his modus operandi inside and outside the Christian sphere. It may well be an approach forced on those disillusioned with institutions and seeing some merit in the idea of loose associations ..........  


       

     

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