Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014  (Read 4443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Neil Obstat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
  • Reputation: +8276/-692
  • Gender: Male
ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
« on: May 10, 2014, 09:21:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0





  • Number CCCLVI (356)                               May 10th, 2014

    NEW ORDINATIONS – I

             Should priests ordained with the new rite of Ordination of 1972 be conditionally re-ordained with the old and certainly valid rite of Ordination ? Catholic doctrine on the validity of sacraments is clear, but the sacramental rites of the Newchurch seem to have been designed to lead gradually to invalidity (see EC 121 of Oct 31, 2009). The « gradually » is the problem. How far along was that gradual process in any given case ? Perhaps God alone knows for sure. But let us begin with the clear doctrine.

              One can say a Catholic sacrament involves five elements : Minister, Intention, Matter and Form are essential for validity, the Rite surrounding the Form can be important for validity by its sudden or gradual bearing on the Minister's Intention. For priestly Orders, the Minister has to be a validly consecrated bishop ; the Intention is his sacramental (not moral) intention, in ordaining, to do what the Church does ; the Matter is his laying of both hands on the head of the man to be ordained (women cannot be validly ordained to the priesthood of Christ) ; the Form is the crucial formula or series of words in the rite which express the conferring of the priesthood ; the Rite is all the other words surrounding that Form, and prescribed in the ceremonial rite of Ordination.

              In a new rite Ordination, if both hands are laid on the head, the Matter is no problem. The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred. Most of them surely do. Where real problems of validity arise is with the Minister and the Intention, because of the gradual erosion of Catholic Intention by the uncatholic new Rites.

              For, as to the Intention, any bishop today ordaining a priest surely intends to do what today's Church does, well and good, but what is that in his mind ? What is a priest in the Newchurch ? Is not yesteryear's renewer of the Sacrifice of Calvary by the Real Presence being slowly but steadily replaced by today's co-ordinator of eucharistic picnics ? How far along is this process in any given diocese of the world ? Did this or that bishop have in mind a sacrificer or a picnicker as being what the Church does ? The ordaining bishop's outward behaviour will indicate his Intention, but God alone may know for sure. Certainly many new Rites of Mass incline towards the picnicker, and the new Rite of Ordination surrounding the Form can only help by its severely diminished catholic content to undermine gradually the sacramental Intention of an ordaining bishop.

              And as to the Minister, if the ordaining bishop was himself consecrated bishop with the new rite of consecration, let us assume that the ambiguity of the new Form of consecration is lifted by the words immediately following, nevertheless doubts like those above as to the Intention of the bishop consecrating must arise: did he consider, and therefore have as his Intention, that today's Church consecrates makers of the Sacrifice, or of picnics ? Such questions can often lack clear answers.

              In brief, were I Pope, I think I might require that all priests or bishops ordained or consecrated with the « renewed » rites should be conditionally re-ordained or re-consecrated, not because I would believe that none of them were true priests or bishops, on the contrary, but because when it comes to the sacraments all serious doubts must be removed, and that would be the simplest way of removing all possible doubts. Newchurch rot of the sacraments could not be left hanging around.

              Kyrie eleison

              Should a Newchurch priest be re-ordained, or not ?
              Answer unsure, from gradual Newchurch rot.

       





    © 2011-2014 Richard N. Williamson. All Rights Reserved.

    A non-exclusive license to print out, forward by email, and/or post this article to the Internet is granted to users who wish to do so provided that no changes are made to the content so reproduced or distributed, to include the retention of this notice with any and all reproductions of content as authorized hereby. Aside from this limited, non-exclusive license, no portion of this article may be reproduced in any other form or by any other electronic or mechanical means without permission in writing from the publisher, except by a reviewer who may quote brief passages in a review, or except in cases where rights to content reproduced herein are retained by its original author(s) or other rights holder(s), and further reproduction is subject to permission otherwise granted thereby.

    Permissions inquiries should be directed to editorial@dinoscopus.org.
    www.dinoscopus.org




    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #1 on: May 10, 2014, 09:40:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Yet another reason that H.E. was not tolerable among the Menzingen-denizens.  Can you imagine +Fellay writing anything close to this today?  Can you imagine him writing anything close to any of the EC's?  And yet, when asked, +F could not give a single example of any error or point of doctrine that any one EC contained that he thought was inappropriate.  

    Notice also, +W doesn't say that any Newpriest is obviously not a priest because of any specific defect.  He says there is a reason for doubt.  And the conditional re-ordination removes the doubt.  

    There is something else he doesn't get into in this short treatment.

    When a priest with doubtful ordination hears confessions and gives absolution, is it valid, or is it rather doubtful?  When he later gets conditionally re-ordained then what about all the previous absolutions he had been giving before that time?  Don't they have to be called into question?  Wouldn't each penitent have to come and re-confess their sins and obtain a repaired absolution?  What if all the penitents could not be found?  Would they have been absolved inadequately and then had gone ahead for perhaps years receiving the Eucharist with mortal sins and not knowing it?  How would that not be another sin, even if it was not deliberate?  How could it be "wrong" without being a sin?

    There is another question to be addressed.  When, in the history of the Church, has any tribunal found that a particular sacerdotal ordination in the past had been invalid?  Can anyone find one case of one invalidly ordained priest, ever, in any century?

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Ferdinand

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 391
    • Reputation: +0/-1
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #2 on: May 10, 2014, 09:57:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some additional material on the subject of the new "Holy Orders" worth reading:
     
    Quote from: Novus Ordo Watch
    Unholy Orders:
    Paul VI's Modernist Ordination Rite Turns 45

    On June 18, 1968, Bp. Giovanni Battista Montini - then the head of the Vatican II Sect and known as "Pope" Paul VI - signed an "apostolic constitution" to change the Roman Catholic rite of ordination. These changes touched not only some of the more peripheral ceremonies but the very substance of the sacrament itself. The very words which Pope Pius XII, in 1947, had definitively decreed were necessary for the validity of the sacrament of holy orders, were changed by Paul VI in such a way as to render the ordination of priests doubtful and the consecration of bishops definitely invalid. (Even a doubtful rite, however, must be considered invalid in practice, per Catholic teaching.) Since all sacraments (other than baptism and holy matrimony) ultimately depend on valid bishops, invalidating the rite of episcopal consecration was all the Modernists needed to do to ensure Catholics would eventually be deprived of most of the sacraments, especially the Holy Mass and absolution in the confessional.

        Antipope Paul VI, "Apostolic Constitution" Pontificalis Romani (1968), original Latin
        Antipope Paul VI, "Apostolic Constitution" Pontificalis Romani (1968), English Translation

    We provide links to prove the invalidity of Paul VI's ordination rite below, but just to give you a sneak preview, see for yourself how badly Montini butchered the essential form of the consecration of bishops, thus totally destroying the sacrament:

    Traditional Roman Catholic Form, per Pope Pius XII (1947):

        "Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica."
        [Translation:] "Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing."

    Modernist Novus Ordo Form, per Antipope Paul VI (1968):

        "Et nunc effunde super hunc Electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio Tuo Iesu Christo, quem Ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca, ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui."
        [Translation:] "So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name."

    Not only does the bogus Novus Ordo form totally replace the words decreed by Pius XII as essential to validity, they do not even in any way express that what is taking place is the consecration of a bishop! They do not even ask the Holy Ghost to make the ordinand into a bishop! Instead, even if one were to say that the totally abstruse phrase "Spiritum principalem" ("Governing Spirit") is a clear reference to the Holy Ghost, the fact remains that it is not stated just what the Holy Ghost is supposed to be doing. God the Father is being asked to "pour out" the Holy Ghost (or at least that "Governing Spirit") - but to do what? To what end? We're not told. The Holy Ghost is poured out also in baptism, in confirmation, and in ordinations of deacons and priests. Paul VI's claim that he was introducing these changes "in order to restore the texts of the rite to the form they had in antiquity, to clarify expressions, or to bring out more clearly the effects of the sacraments" (Pontificalis Romani) is beyond laughable; it is, in fact, insulting to the intelligence of the informed reader.

    A sacramental form that does not express what it is supposed to accomplish is definitely invalid, as the articles about the invalidity of the Novus Ordo holy orders below demonstrate.

    In addition to changing the sacramental form of priestly and episcopal ordination, in his docuмent Pontificalis Romani Paul VI abolished the major order of subdeacon and all of the minor orders (acolyte, exorcist, lector, and porter), none of which are sacraments, but whose denial was condemned by the Council of Trent and flies in the face of the Modernists' favorite lie to seek to restore things to "antiquity":

        "...from the very beginning of the Church the names of the following orders and the duties proper to each one are known to have been in use, namely those of the subdeacon, acolyte, exorcist, rector, and porter, though not of equal rank; for the subdiaconate is classed among the major orders by the Fathers and the sacred Councils, in which we also read very frequently of other inferior orders" (Council of Trent, Session 23, Ch. 2; Denz. 958)
        "If anyone says that besides the priesthood there are in the Catholic Church no other orders, both major and minor, by which as by certain grades, there is an advance to the priesthood: let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Session 23, Canon 2; Denz. 962)

    Rome has spoken; the case is closed.

    But before anyone suggests that somehow Paul VI's docuмent "isn't binding", we must point out that in it he clearly invokes his supposed (but non-existent) "apostolic authority" and requires that this new rite be used in place of the prior, Catholic one:

        "By our apostolic authority we approve this rite so that it may be used in the future for the conferral of these orders in place of the rite now found in the Roman Pontifical. It is our will that these our decrees and prescriptions be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by our predecessors and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and amendment." (Paul VI, Pontificalis Romani)

    According to a decree of the Novus Ordo "Sacred Congregation of Rites" dated August 15, 1968, Montini's new rite of ordination became obligatory for the entire Latin church as of Easter Sunday, April 6, 1969. So we know for sure that since this date, the Novus Ordo church has not validly consecrated a single bishop in the Latin rite, and probably not ordained a single valid priest, either.

    The repercussions are unfathomable - but they explain a lot about the state of the New Church. The sacraments are largely gone, so there is simply no grace there, and it shows. But the true Catholic Church cannot give evil or harmful or invalid sacramental rites to her faithful. Such an idea would contradict the promises of infallibility and indefectibility by Our Blessed Lord. This is further evidence that the Vatican II Sect in Rome is not the Catholic Church of Pope Pius XII and his predecessors. Consider the following clear teachings:

        "Certainly the loving Mother [the Church] is spotless in the Sacraments, by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed on all; in the evangelical counsels which she recommends; in those heavenly gifts and extraordinary graces through which, with inexhaustible fecundity, she generates hosts of martyrs, virgins and confessors." (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Mediator Dei, par. 66)
        "The Church is infallible in her general discipline. By the term general discipline is understood the laws and practices which belong to the external ordering of the whole Church. Such things would be those which concern either external worship, such as liturgy and rubrics, or the administration of the sacraments.... If she [the Church] were able to prescribe or command or tolerate in her discipline something against faith and morals, or something which tended to the detriment of the Church or to the harm of the faithful, she would turn away from her divine mission, which would be impossible." (Jean Herrmann, Institutiones Theologiae Dogmaticae, Vol. 1, 1908, p. 258)
        "If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Session 22, Canon 7)

    Try to apply this to the Novus Ordo Church, and you realize very quickly that it's impossible. The Vatican II Church has defected, has given evil, has destroyed the sacraments, has been a scandal to the faithful rather than the embassy of salvation. In the Catholic Church, however, the Pope is "the citadel and bulwark of the Catholic faith" (Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Qui Nuper, par. 3). No one could seriously say this about the Antipopes of the Vatican II Church. Paul VI - Giovanni Montini - was not a true Pope, but an impostor, as well as his predecessor John XXIII, who started the false church, and his successors John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis I.

    The many links we provide below will help you as you research these issues.

    As the late Fr. Carl Pulvermacher, OFM Cap., is sometimes quoted as saying, "Once there are no more valid priests, they'll permit the Latin Mass." Think about that!

    Invalid: The Unholy Orders of the Vatican II Church:

        Absolutely Null and Utterly Void: The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration [PDF] by Fr. Anthony Cekada
        Examines the criteria for validity, Eastern Rite formulas, ancient Christian texts, early doubts about validity, "governing Spirit" vs. "fullness of the priesthood," substantial change, arguments from context, papal approval. Answer to SSPX/Angelus and Sel de la Terre articles by Fr. Pierre-Marie favoring validity. Extensive bibliography.
        Why the New Bishops are Not True Bishops [PDF] by Fr. Anthony Cekada
        A two-page summary of the above-linked study "Absolutely Null and Utterly Void".
        Still Null and Still Void: Replies to Objections [PDF] by Fr. Anthony Cekada
        Replies to objections from Br. Ansgar Santogrossi, OSB, Fr. Pierre-Marie de Kergorlay, OP, and Fr. Alvaro Calderon, SSPX, against the above-linked study "Absolutely Null and Utterly Void".
        New Bishops, Empty Tabernacle [PDF]
        Response to an editorial by Abbé Grégoire Celier which employs some novel and bizarre principles to defend the validity of the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration.
        Saved by Context? The '68 Rite of Episcopal Consecration [March 2012]
        Rejoinder to the popular objection that the larger context provided by the 1968 rite of bishops' ordination gives clear expression to the sacramental form and hence suffices for validity.
        The New Ordination Rite: Purging the Priesthood in the Conciliar Church [PDF] by Fr. William Jenkins
        A response to certain arguments advanced by Michael Davies in his book The Order of Melchisedech, this article examines the Novus Ordo rite of priestly ordination in light of Catholic theology and concludes that it is doubtful at best and therefore must be considered invalid in practice. Contains shocking information about how the "reform" of the rite came about.

    Offline Ferdinand

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 391
    • Reputation: +0/-1
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 10:36:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
    "The union desired by these Liberal Catholics, a union between the Church and the Revolution and subversion is, for the Church, an adulterous union, adulterous. And that adulterous union can only produce bastards. And who are those bastards? They are our rites: the rite of the Mass is a bastard rite, the sacraments are bastard sacraments - we no longer know if they are sacraments which give grace or which do not give grace. We no longer know if this Mass gives the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ or if it does not give them. The priests coming out of the seminaries do not themselves know what they are."

    -Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre Lille, August 29, 1976

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    So nobody has any answers to my questions, apparently.  

    Interesting.


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3849/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 04:30:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    When a priest with doubtful ordination hears confessions and gives absolution, is it valid, or is it rather doubtful?  When he later gets conditionally re-ordained then what about all the previous absolutions he had been giving before that time?  Don't they have to be called into question?  Wouldn't each penitent have to come and re-confess their sins and obtain a repaired absolution?  What if all the penitents could not be found?  Would they have been absolved inadequately and then had gone ahead for perhaps years receiving the Eucharist with mortal sins and not knowing it?  How would that not be another sin, even if it was not deliberate?  How could it be "wrong" without being a sin?
    .

    These questions occurred to me when I became a traditional Catholic and had doubts about the validity of the Novus Ordo sacraments. I came to the conclusion that I had to re-confess all the mortal sins I confessed to Novus Ordo "priests" so I made a general confession with my SSPX priest. It took a long time because I had many sins.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Centroamerica

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2655
    • Reputation: +1641/-438
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 05:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    Yet another reason that H.E. was not tolerable among the Menzingen-denizens.  Can you imagine +Fellay writing anything close to this today?  Can you imagine him writing anything close to any of the EC's?  And yet, when asked, +F could not give a single example of any error or point of doctrine that any one EC contained that he thought was inappropriate.  

    Notice also, +W doesn't say that any Newpriest is obviously not a priest because of any specific defect.  He says there is a reason for doubt.  And the conditional re-ordination removes the doubt.  

    There is something else he doesn't get into in this short treatment.

    When a priest with doubtful ordination hears confessions and gives absolution, is it valid, or is it rather doubtful?  When he later gets conditionally re-ordained then what about all the previous absolutions he had been giving before that time?  Don't they have to be called into question?  Wouldn't each penitent have to come and re-confess their sins and obtain a repaired absolution?  What if all the penitents could not be found?  Would they have been absolved inadequately and then had gone ahead for perhaps years receiving the Eucharist with mortal sins and not knowing it?  How would that not be another sin, even if it was not deliberate?  How could it be "wrong" without being a sin?

    There is another question to be addressed.  When, in the history of the Church, has any tribunal found that a particular sacerdotal ordination in the past had been invalid?  Can anyone find one case of one invalidly ordained priest, ever, in any century?

    .


    I just saw your question. I believe that their contrition would supply them with sanctifying grace, though when or if they come to knowledge about the doubtfulness of the validity of the priest then they will have the obligation to confess their sins again. That is my opinion. A good source to find a supportable answer would be Fr. Heribert's Moral Theology. I don't have a copy here with me to quote, and it has been many years since having read it.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Pete Vere

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 584
    • Reputation: +193/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 07:04:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Notice also, +W doesn't say that any Newpriest is obviously not a priest because of any specific defect.  He says there is a reason for doubt.  And the conditional re-ordination removes the doubt.


    Mgr Williamson says there is reason to doubt these men are priests because they were ordained in the new rite. And yet Mgr Williamson consistently states there is no reason to doubt that Benedict or Francis (consecrated in the same rite) are valid popes?

    This makes no sense.



    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 07:51:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pete Vere
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Notice also, +W doesn't say that any Newpriest is obviously not a priest because of any specific defect.  He says there is a reason for doubt.  And the conditional re-ordination removes the doubt.


    Mgr Williamson says there is reason to doubt these men are priests because they were ordained in the new rite. And yet Mgr Williamson consistently states there is no reason to doubt that Benedict or Francis (consecrated in the same rite) are valid popes?

    This makes no sense.



    It is not necessary to be a priest to be a pope.

    You only need to be a Catholic man.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Centroamerica

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2655
    • Reputation: +1641/-438
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 08:48:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Pete Vere
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Notice also, +W doesn't say that any Newpriest is obviously not a priest because of any specific defect.  He says there is a reason for doubt.  And the conditional re-ordination removes the doubt.


    Mgr Williamson says there is reason to doubt these men are priests because they were ordained in the new rite. And yet Mgr Williamson consistently states there is no reason to doubt that Benedict or Francis (consecrated in the same rite) are valid popes?

    This makes no sense.



    It is not necessary to be a priest to be a pope.

    You only need to be a Catholic man.


    Mons. Williamson never said that there is no reason to doubt if Francis is a valid pope. In fact, he says the opposite.

    Quote from: Pete Vere
    consistently


    Not hardly.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline MariaAngelaGrow

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 735
    • Reputation: +173/-0
    • Gender: Female
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 09:21:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • [/b]The Anglican ordinations were considered invalid, but other than that, I do not know. It is an interesting point: if novus ordo ordinations are not valid, then are the current bishops, cardinals, popes, actually validly ordained? If they are not, can we say they are pope, bishop, etc. ? It is very confusing. Neil Obstat, could you please enlighten us re: historical instances of invalid ordinations? Thank you very much.
     


    "LET NOTHING DISTURB YOU; NOTHING FRIGHTEN YOU. ALL THINGS ARE PASSING. GOD NEVER CHANGES.PATIENCE OBTAINS ALL THINGS. NOTHING IS WANTING TO HIM WHO POSSESSES GOD. GOD ALONE SUFFICES." St Theresa of Avila




    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 10:23:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nielobstat - Bp. Tissier expressed a doubt about the new rite of consecration(perhaps ordination as well).  I think you can find the article on traditioninaction.org.

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1953/-361
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #12 on: May 11, 2014, 01:16:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This 'industry of doubt' seems to be a nice little earner for many in the trad business. Listening to such clergy, there is so much complication and lack of clarity in their positions, at least for the humble layman. One minute, we are warned that Rome stages a new religion ..... and the recent elevation of two of its pioneers is confirming that fact ..... while certain features and practices within this new order are not to be totally condemned because they may resemble some things of the old religion and may have some value. Even the Novus Ordo establishment which has had sufficient time to develop and mature is still capable of being salvaged! This is Ratzinger theory in reverse!

    The bishop has an awkward path to tread because he is stuck in a groove which does not totally dismiss modern Rome and acts as though ABL's temporary emergency can go on forever ..... short of the hand of wrath. We would be spared acres of argument if a line were drawn under any remaining sentimentality as regards contemporary Rome because folk there wear the clothes of popes and cardinals and bear the same titles. This fact alone seems to contribute to a crisis of identity among even hardline traditionalists. And then we have to constantly suffer all their doubts and elaborations.    



    Offline Charlotte NC Bill

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 422
    • Reputation: +495/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #13 on: May 11, 2014, 07:18:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Excellent EC....I really do think the SSPX is under a spiritual curse until/if they rectify the mistreatment of Bp. Williamson and bring back the dozens of excellent priests that have been exiled the past couple of yrs..Have you seen the Confirmation schedule? Bp Fellay is going everywhere and Bp DeMallerais is going to 4 locations..well that's one way to control the message...

    Offline Pete Vere

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 584
    • Reputation: +193/-4
    • Gender: Male
    ELEISON COMMENTS CCCLVI - May 10th, 2014
    « Reply #14 on: May 11, 2014, 07:31:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Charlotte NC Bill
    Excellent EC....I really do think the SSPX is under a spiritual curse until/if they rectify the mistreatment of Bp. Williamson and bring back the dozens of excellent priests that have been exiled the past couple of yrs..Have you seen the Confirmation schedule? Bp Fellay is going everywhere and Bp DeMallerais is going to 4 locations..well that's one way to control the message...


    The split had to take place. R&R was never intended as anything more than a temporary compromise until the perceived crisis blew over. Nobody anticipated it would go into cryogenic mode.

    Thus the ampersand can no longer hold the two R's together.