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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)  (Read 5426 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
« on: August 17, 2024, 01:01:42 AM »
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  • August 17th, 2024EC No. DCCCXCII (892)
    Bp. THOMAS SPEAKS
    This true disciple made no compromise,
    And, to his Master, proves still faithful and wise.
    Bishop Thomas Aquinas, Superior of the “Resistance” Benedictine Monastery in the hills behind Rio de Janeiro in Brazil, does not often make public declarations, but the one that he made at the end of last month on “Archbishop Lefebvre, Archbishop Vigano and Sedevacantism” might make us wish that he took position in public more often. In those crucial years of the 1970’s and 1980’s Fr. Thomas Aquinas was never a seminarian directly under Archbishop Lefebvre inside the Archbishop’s Society of St Pius X, but he was closer to the Archbishop in thought and mind than many of his own seminarians, and could be called at that time a confidant of the Archbishop. His faithfulness to the Archbishop’s way of thinking is clear from this recent article of Bishop Thomas, translated below, complete, from a French version of the original –
    Archbishop Vigano has behaved like a true hero ever since he realised, or began to realise, just how the Conciliar Church is doctrinally and morally decomposing. Unfortunately he seems to be leaning towards the position that the Apostolic See is vacant. Time will tell if he is truly a sedevacantist.
    As for Archbishop Lefebvre, he had already begun this fight with the Conciliar Church when it was even more decisive than it is today. He had gained the trust of Catholics all over the world, thanks to his solid doctrinal formation and to his superior practical judgment. The latter enabled him to avoid both the trap to the left of the Ecclesia Dei communities going back under Rome, and the trap to the right of sedevacantism. He pointed out precisely how on the left Dom Gerard and others like him were leading their communities to commit ѕυιcιdє by placing themselves under the authority of the modernists, while the sedevacantists on the right were putting themselves in a position as uncertain as it is dangerous, by stating more than Church teaching allows one to state.
    Some people think that Archbishop Lefebvre would be a sedevacantist today. I do not think so. I even think the opposite. I think the arguments he gave when he was alive have lost nothing of their force or relevance today. His arguments are simple. What becomes of the Church if the Popes from John XXIII to Francis were never Popes? Were the Cardinals appointed by them not valid Cardinals? Who will elect the next Pope? How can we ever have a Pope again? Sedevacantism would seem to imperil the very existence of the Church. Let us rather wait for the Church to give official judgment on the question one day, so as to resolve it once and for all.
    Given how opinions held and measures undertaken diverge within Tradition today, I see only one reasonable line of conduct: to hold on to and to hand down what we received from Archbishop Lefebvre, in doctrine and in practice. Many will object that in practice one needs to take into account how the state of the Church crisis has evolved from the Archbishop’s day to our own. True, there have been changes, but they are not essential. The crisis remains essentially the same. Like the Arian crisis which lasted 60 years, this crisis carries on, unchanged. Hence the relevance of the Archbishop’s example.
    May Our Lady, conqueror of all heresies, grant us the grace to overcome the attacks of the Devil and of the modernists.
    +Tomas Aquinas, O.S.B.
    Here is the Catholic wisdom of Archbishop Lefebvre, restated for our times, most fruitful for the Church when judged by its fruits, of not deviating to the right or to the left, as the Lord God commanded Joshua when he succeeded to Moses as leader of the Israelites (Joshua I, 7). Truth is the measure of this centre position, and not where right or left may happen to find themselves, because Truth is of God.
    Kyrie eleison.

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2024, 05:27:11 AM »
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  • From what I remember (say about a year ago), Bishop Williamson was starting to be more open to sedevacantism or at least starting to sound like he was not against it.  His latest EC's seem to be making it clear that he is very much against it (again). 

    Given the mention of Vigano in this piece, and his recent EC against sedevacantism, could it be that he is regretting conditionally consecrating Vigano?  Is he trying to warn him not to "go there"?  These latest comments and his continued silence on the conditional consecration makes me wonder.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2024, 09:20:24 AM »
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  • Unfortunately, the Resistance in general continues accepting Jorge Bergoglio as pope despite the sufficient evidence that he is not Catholic due to his public sin of manifest formal heresy.  This is not the position of Archbishop Lefebvre, who based his judgment on the evidence.  Today, it is Archbishop Vigano that most closely resembles Archbishop Lefebvre on this matter.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2024, 09:41:17 AM »
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  • Siscoe, that you?

    In any case, your response is idiotic.  SPism provides a mechanism for legitimate Cardinals, but even if you don't hold that position, St. Robert Bellarmine deals with the question of what would happen if all the Cardinals were, say, hypothetically, killed.  We know that the Cardinalate is not of Divine Institution.  St. Robert holds that in such a scenario, first the clergy of Rome could elect a Pope, or, if they were gone too, an imperfect Council could convene, since God would never permit the Church to be without a means to elect / designate a pope.  Formal Papal authority comes from God, and the Church's role is merely that of designating (aka electing) the individual in whom God would then invest the papal authority.

    +Lefebvre was mistaken, as he was about several matters.  As for +Vigano, he strongly implied in his laster "interview" with Marshall, that it's possible we're in the end times and that there would be no more popes until the return of Christ.

    It's possible to have a Church without Cardinals.  It's not possible to have a Church that is not Catholic, does not have the notes of the Catholic Church.  While the former doesn't entail a defection of the Church (cf. St. Robert Bellarmine), the latter most certainly does.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #4 on: August 17, 2024, 09:43:22 AM »
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  • Unfortunately he seems to be leaning towards the position that the Apostolic See is vacant. 

    "Leaning"?  He's stated it unequivocally.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #5 on: August 17, 2024, 09:48:09 AM »
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  • "Leaning"?  He's stated it unequivocally.

    I agree. Has +W forgotten about that? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #6 on: August 17, 2024, 09:49:23 AM »
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  • Nope. Bishop Thomas Aquinas gives the reason Archbishop Lefebvre rejected (even a 20-30 year) vacancy in the Papacy, which applies with even greater force to a 60-70 year one. Did you read it. Let me quote it: "His arguments are simple. What becomes of the Church if the Popes from John XXIII to Francis were never Popes? Were the Cardinals appointed by them not valid Cardinals? Who will elect the next Pope? How can we ever have a Pope again? Sedevacantism would seem to imperil the very existence of the Church."

    I will give Bishop Vigano credit for one thing, he very clearly affirms what the earliest Sedevacantists also did - invalid Pope, invalid Cardinals, period. Some modern Sedevacantists, feeling too clearly the force of the objection presented by +ABL above, have vainly tried to pretend that somehow even a heretical or invalid Pope could install valid Cardinals, which contradicts cuм Ex and Catholic Theology. The stakes are clear: either the Popes of the last 66 years have been invalid Popes, and with them fall all Cardinals (and Diocesan Bishops), or they were valid. Tertiam non datur. (there is no third option here). Vigano said: "As I stated in my Communiqué of June 20, I do not recognize the authority of the tribunal that claims to judge me, nor of its Prefect, nor of the one who appointed him." https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-22-2024-friday-june-28-vigano-statement/

    This opinion, although for now Vigano applies it only to Pope Francis, flatly falls under the objection raised by Archbishop Lefebvre. Soon enough, he will recognize it is a dead end, as millions have realized in 60+ years. Let me quote +ABL: https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_two/Chapter_40.htm

    Quote
    "They argue further that, chosen by a heretical Pope, the great majority of the cardinals are not cardinals at all and thus lacked the authority to elect another Pope. Pope John Paul I and Pope John Paul II were thus, they say, illegitimately elected. They continue that it is inadmissible to pray for a pope who is not Pope or to have any "conversations" (like mine of November 1978) with one who has no right to the Chair of Peter ... Does not the exclusion of the cardinals of over eighty years of ages, and the secret meetings which preceded and prepared the last two Conclaves, render them invalid? Invalid: no, that is saying too much. Doubtful at the time: perhaps. But in any case, the subsequent unanimous acceptance of the election by the Cardinals and the Roman clergy suffices to validate it. That is the teaching of the theologians.
    The visibility of the Church is too necessary to its existence for it to be possible that God would allow that visibility to disappear for decades. The reasoning of those who deny that we have a Pope puts the Church in an inextricable situation. Who will tell us who the future Pope is to be? How, as there are no Cardinals, is he to be chosen? This spirit is a schismatical one for at least the majority of those who attach themselves to certainly schismatical sects like Palmar de Troya, the Eglise Latine de Toulouse, and others."

    Well said. The quote from +ABL above shows that he would not have been a sedevacantist now. It has been mentioned on this thread that +ABL followed the evidence, when actually, what he prudently followed was the teachings of the Catholic Church. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #7 on: August 17, 2024, 09:49:50 AM »
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  • I agree. Has +W forgotten about that?

    Well, he was citing Bishop Tomas Aquinas.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #8 on: August 17, 2024, 09:56:48 AM »
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  • Well said. The quote from +ABL above shows that he would not have been a sedevacantist now.

    No, it really doesn't.  It's well known that during the early 1980s, +Lefebvre was more hopeful and got into +Fellay mode, where he was seeking a practical arrangement with Rome, i.e. being allowed to make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon.  But by the time of Assisi, after his hope for Wojtyla had faded, he stated that if Assisi were to take place (it did, obviously), he might have to declare the See vacant.  So +Lefebvre seem to respond to events in going back and forth on matter, and he could easily have rejected Bergoglio who in many ways makes Wojyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.  Now, whether he would have become a Bennyvacantist or straight SV is hard to know, but in any case this line of thinking is utterly idiotic, showing that far too many engage in +Lefebevbre personality-cult worship.  +Lefebvre was wrong about quite a few things, including the consecration of +Fellay, but by no means was he infallible or some kind of rule of faith, a prerogative that belongs to the Papal Magisterium and which the R&R types have somehow transferred instead to +Lefebvre.  This is in keeping with Bishop Williamson's itching ears, always seeking out and being excessively credulous of private revelation.  +Williamson saw +Lefebvre as some kind of divine oracle and therefore rule of faith.  While it's complicated by the fact that +Lefebvre has been gone for over 3 decades now, it's a non-Catholic mindset to uphold a fallible man as a rule of faith while at the same time refusing that prerogative to the Papal Magisterium, where it rightly belongs.

    Offline RobertS

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #9 on: August 17, 2024, 09:58:46 AM »
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  • Agreed, Meg.

    Ladislaus: Siscoe? No. Also, pls read Msgr. Fenton on the indefectibility of the Roman Church: "Actually the infallibility of the Roman Church is much more than a mere theological opinion. The proposition that "the Church of the city of Rome can fall into error" is one of the theses of Peter de Osma, formally condemned by Pope Sixtus IV as erroneous and as containing manifest heresy.[37]" https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=608 This means the Roman Clergy can never defect, even in a supposed interregnum. Cardinals are an ecclesiastical creation, so-called because they are incardinated into the Roman Church and become the leaders of the Roman Clergy. With or without Cardinals, you will always have Roman Clergy. Otherwise, the Roman Church has defected, which is impossible.

    Moving to the Universal Church, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (or Ecclesia Docens/Teaching Church) is also indefectible. That means all Bishops collectively cannot defect, even by following a false Pope, or by alleged heresy, or by death, otherwise the Church has defected. Here is Scheeben:

    Quote
    “The indefectibility of the Church and of truth in the Church of course presupposes the indefectibility of the teaching body itself and of its activity. This however takes essentially different forms in the head and in the totality of the members of the teaching body.
    “The person who at a given moment is head of the teaching body can die, without any cessation of the continued operation of the authority of the head, and thus without the interruption of the continued existence of the uniform law of faith, and without it becoming impossible for the authority to be transferred to another person.
    “The totality of the bishops, however, cannot die without thereby suspending their specific operation as authentic witnesses of the truth and making impossible any further succession in their function.
    “Likewise it is possible, notwithstanding the continuing operation of his authority, that the pope extra iudicuм [i.e. not ex cathedra] should profess, teach, or attest something false or heretical; on the contrary it is incompatible with the permanent authenticity of the aggregate episcopal testimony that all the bishops should attest, teach, or profess something false or heretical, even extra iudicium"


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #10 on: August 17, 2024, 10:00:50 AM »
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  • Well, he was citing Bishop Tomas Aquinas.

    You're right. Though maybe he was judging it by the fact that "real" sedevacantists believe that all the conciliar popes have all been invalid.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2024, 10:03:25 AM »
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  • It's a shame that both the Resistance and the new-sspx are living in the past.  The Resistance quotes +ABL to prove that an anti-sedevacantist stance is the best approach.  The new-sspx quotes +ABL to prove that reuniting with rome is the best approach.

    When leadership (or lack thereof) keeps appealing to decades old opinions of 1 man, however great he may be, this shows either
    1) a stagnation of thinking, and an inability to understand/apply principles properly, or
    2) a lack of fortitude to react to changing circuмstances and new evils, or
    3) an appeal to nostalgia in an attempt to manipulate.

    For the Resistance, I think it's a mix of 1 and 2, mostly 1.  For the new-sspx, it's a mix of 2 and 3, mostly 3.

    If you look at every other Trad instituation or person, who did not overly focus on +ABL's many, varying quotes on the topic, they all have come to the conclusion that "Francis" is a heretic and he's not the pope (in some form or fashion).  All of the sedevacantists, CMRI, Fr Hesse, and now +Vigano.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2024, 10:08:49 AM »
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  • https://www.wmreview.org/p/lefebvre-any-sensible-man

    Are there any heresies committed by Francis that weren't also committed by JP2? +ABL certainly believed that JP2 was a real Pope, though a modernist. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bp Thomas Speaks (no. 892)
    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2024, 10:10:56 AM »
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  • Are there any heresies committed by Francis that weren't also committed by JP2? +ABL certainly believed that JP2 was a real Pope, though a modernist.

    The difference is that Jorge Bergoglio has shown himself to be pertinacious.