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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)  (Read 4258 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
« on: September 29, 2023, 11:07:38 PM »
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  • DCCCXLVI #846
    September 30, 2023
    BAD SHEPHERDS ?
    We always want calm seas, easy to sail,
    But God wants storms, to test how we avail.

    As certain questions come back, so there are certain answers which need to be repeated. From the very beginning of the “Traditional movement” soon after Vatican II there arose the question of attending or not the New Mass of Pope Paul VI: If it is not necessarily invalid, if it can be valid, why can I not attend it?” In accordance with Catholic theology of the Mass, the Tradionalists’ answer from the beginning was that even if the celebration of a New Mass with correct Matter, Form and Intention is valid, nevertheless it cannot normally be attended because it is so poisoned by the new humanistic religion of Vatican II that many a Catholic who attends it regularly, risks losing his faith by exposure to a false version of God, of man, of sin and Redemption, no less. The Traditional Mass is centred on God, the New Mass is centred on man.
    However, the acceptability of attending the New Mass has been supported in recent years by the allegation that there have been a number of Eucharistic miracles with hosts consecrated at a New Mass celebrated by a priest ordained with the New Ordination Rite by a bishop consecrated with the New Consecration Rite, for instance in Sokulka, Poland, in 2008. Now Traditionalists not only claim, but can argue, that all three New Rites (of Mass, Ordination and Consecration) can be invalid, but in the case of many of these alleged Eucharistic miracles they are up against the (truly) scientific evidence of transubstantiation having really taken place. See for instance the 279-page book recently published by the Sophia Institute Press, A Cardiologist Examines Jesus, in which a professional heart doctor lays out “the stunning science behind Eucharistic miracles.” A sane mind, having examined such “science,” starts out from it. Sokulka features in the book from pages 81 to 95. Two of the book’s 27 photographic plates come from Sokulka.
    With such evidence we must assume that at least a number of alleged eucharistic miracles are authentic. The argument for the New Mass then takes the following form: If the New Mass is as offensive to God and as harmful to Catholics as Traditionalists claim, then how could God (who alone can produce the evidence behind such miracles) possibly have worked them at the New Mass? And how can it possibly be wrong for me to attend it? The answer has not changed from above. All that the scientific evidence has done is to prove beyond all possible doubt that transubstantiation really did happen at the Mass where the miracle took place. Then the question becomes, how can a loving God possibly want to poison the faith of His own sheep?
    The answer is classic. God does not want evil, but He wants to allow evil in order to bring a greater good from it. The evil is the exposure of Catholic souls to humanistic poison threatening their faith. This evil was wanted by the unfaithful churchmen who changed the Rite of Mass, but it was not wanted by God. What He wanted was to remind His shepherds (bishops) and His sheep (layfolk) that the Mass is the true Sacrifice of His Son, and both of them must stop behaving as though Mass is just like some glorified picnic. In Sokulka for instance, the parish priest at the time of the miracle and for a number of years afterwards, declares that devotion to the Holy Eucharist has notably increased in the whole region of Sokulka itself ever since the miracle. And the miraculous host is now exposed for adoration in a side chapel of the parish church.
    Thus Almighty God does not like what a mass of churchmen and layfolk have done to His church down the ages, starting with Judas Iscariot, but He does want to put His infinitely precious Church in the hands of churchmen with free-will to merit for their own Heaven by how well they serve it, at the risk of their choosing to demerit by their dis-serving it, and he does want to allow His sheep to have bad church shepherds if that is what they deserve, so that they will suffer and return to wanting good shepherds. But He will never leave His sheep completely leaderless, if they want to get to Heaven. See how He gave us Archbishop Lefebvre to pioneer the return to Tradition, and now Archbishop Vigano to set an example of courage, in telling Catholic Truth to an apparently overwhelming anti-Catholic power.
    Kyrie eleison

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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #1 on: September 30, 2023, 12:45:06 AM »
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  • This is no criticism of +Bp. W. personally, but since 9-11, or even since the discontinued swine flu vaccines under President Ford in the 1970’s, I have a problem with “trusting the science.”  So many of the scientists have turned out to be untrustworthy in the pursuit of money, power, and prestige at the expense of Truth.  Those who do go public with Truth find themselves cancelled or disappeared. 

    So, why should I trust this scientific tome, the heart doctor, or the “fact” that more people come to Eucharistic Adoration?  Could the priest be lying?  I sincerely hope not, but everyone knows ethical  scientists don’t declare something true until it has been extensively peer reviewed and stood the test of time.  Even the Church has “the Devil’s Advocate” before a person is declared a Saint! 

    It’s good that more people want to come to church, but numbers don’t indicate validity.  How many people who cried, “Hosanna” on Palm Sunday later cried, “Crucify Him” on Good Friday?  When Our Lord spoke of eating His Body and drinking His Blood, the vast majority of the people dismissed Him as mad or of actually advocating cannibalism. Scripture tells us they left off following Him. 
    When news of His Resurrection spread, how many of those deserters reconsidered and came back?  We don’t know.

    Of those who’ve come to adore, most, I believe are sincere, people seeking God, but are some pretenders, or “miracle actors” (crisis actors) sent to whip up the crowds?  Could be. One can be sincerely wrong. Saul, the Pharisee zealously and sincerely persecuted Christians until God gave him a dramatic correction. Then he became St. Paul, the Apostle “born out of time,” who even more zealously and sincerely preached “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” to martyrdom.

    Could this Host be a true miracle?  Yes, I believe so, but could it be fake, promulgated by corrupt men?  I must admit of that, too.
    Is His Excellency a cardiologist who has, himself examined the Host?  How well and for how long has he known the book’s author, the doctor, the priest? 

    I thoroughly disagree with +Bp. W. refusing Holy Oils to Fr. Hewko because he doesn’t believe in, an as of yet, unapproved miracle.  And even if the Church did approve it, given the current crisis, I wouldn’t stake my salvation on it. (There exist other factors, much more important, imo, for refusing Holy Oils to Fr. Hewko.  These are issues that Fr. H. has yet to have publicly acknowledged or made right. I’ll go into it no further, EC being neither the time nor place.)

    +Bp.W., I beg you to reconsider your stand on both this Eucharistic Miracle, and more importantly, your near insistence on its acceptance by all Catholics. This is a break with your stance in the past.  Think, Garabandal, Valtorta’s “Poem of the Man-God,” a number of unnamed female seers, attendance at the novus ordo for those unfamiliar with tradition…Should there not be charity in matters doubtful and anathema in matters of dogma?  It doesn’t seem like you at all.

    AB to you, and Kyrie Eleison!


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #2 on: September 30, 2023, 05:36:24 AM »
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  • Should there not be charity in matters doubtful and anathema in matters of dogma?  It doesn’t seem like you at all.
    Herein lies the problem, Seraphina. Bishop Williamson forces his view on no one. But Fr Hewko - a doubtful matter? - charity towards BW? 

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #3 on: September 30, 2023, 06:40:05 AM »
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  • Herein lies the problem, Seraphina. Bishop Williamson forces his view on no one. But Fr Hewko - a doubtful matter? - charity towards BW?
    Fr. Hewko has criticized +Bp. W. online for years now, all stemming from one admittedly ill-timed answer to an elderly n.o. woman’s question at a conference, or maybe it was a Confirmation?  He should have spoken with her privately after the conference.  

    In the interim, Fr. H. has increasingly spoken as if he and Fr. Ruiz are the only two 100% traditional priests still standing.  I tried questioning him maybe a year and a half ago about some things he said in sermons and talks online, (nothing about Bp. W.).  He basically danced around my questions, really just repeating himself without an explanation. Some were doctrinal or issues of moral theology, and others were about what I consider to be conjectures, not facts.  
     And now he’s bought some property in the mountains of New Hampshire to open, and he did use this word, a “seminary.”  At first, he said “oratory,” meaning, a house of prayer and catechesis. He says he’s not at all looking to follow in the footsteps of Fr. Pfeiffer by becoming a bishop, but I wonder if he’d refuse if an offer came his way?  The entire matter of his time at OLMC is an issue about which he’s said next to nothing except the once when he made the break.  
    Why is it he constantly tears down Bp. W. for non-dogmatic issues while nothing is mentioned about the dubious consecration of Fr. Pfeiffer? Nothing is mentioned about the masses said there by the fake bishop Moran? People went to Confession and Communion, all invalid!  I have a friend who was so seriously disturbed by this, fearing she’d committed sacrilege. She was so ashamed that she felt she couldn’t trust anyone to talk about it and had a breakdown. Her son finally convinced her to speak with another priest. Seeing him required a plane trip, motel stays, eating out, with money she didn’t have.  It was worth it because she’s back on track, but that is truly scandalous.  What of the guest priests with dodgy backgrounds?  
    What about the issues with “Pablo?” He offended and scandalized many people, and yet both priests made excuses and allowed him to continue, unhindered.  
    I also wonder what will become of his small flock in Massachusetts.  Will everyone drive all the way to New Hampshire?  Will he be able to simultaneously form young men for the priesthood, build a seminary from scratch, tend to the needs of his flock in MA, and still visit elsewhere, CA, MI, AZ, KS, Canada, etc.?  Even if Fr. Ruiz joins him, how will that work?  
    At the very least, he owes +Bp. W. a public apology.  
    And now +Bp. W. seems to be going off track in his last two EC’s. In the past, he’s never insisted upon compliance with his non-dogmatic opinions or even strong beliefs. But now he seems to be leaning more in that direction. Maybe he’s not thinking things out as he used to?He has noticeably aged physically in the last two or three years and no longer thunders in his sermons. After all, he is, I believe, in his 84th year, by God’s grace. He’s still up and if not running, then walking. Maybe he’s using reverse psychology on Fr. H., British humor that’s not recognized in parts of the US.  (Just like NYC area humor, those who haven’t lived it, don’t get it.  They get offended!  I learned that the hard way in my 20’s.  It got me a failing grade on a project in college, 1.0 out of 4.0, and resulted in a bad performance review and “naughty letter” in my permanent file on my second job in Ohio!)  
    I just really hate the in-fighting and factions among traditional Catholics. Catholics have always bickered, but it seems to me it’s getting hateful as out in the world.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #4 on: September 30, 2023, 09:48:38 AM »
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  • +Bp.W., I beg you to reconsider your stand on both this Eucharistic Miracle, and more importantly, your near insistence on its acceptance by all Catholics. This is a break with your stance in the past.  Think, Garabandal, Valtorta’s “Poem of the Man-God,” a number of unnamed female seers, attendance at the novus ordo for those unfamiliar with tradition…Should there not be charity in matters doubtful and anathema in matters of dogma?  It doesn’t seem like you at all.

    Um... did I miss something? I just read the entire EC and didn't see any change from his past about anything. He's giving his thoughts and opinions, he's on his soapbox -- nothing more. I saw no ultimatums, no demands for anyone to "tow the line" or anything like your above quote suggests.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #5 on: September 30, 2023, 09:52:25 AM »
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  • I, for one, could easily understand why God would work Eucharistic Miracles in a Novus Ordo context.

    A) I know we Trads like to throw the entire Conciliar Church in the trash can, along with everyone in it, but God isn't so lacking in compassion and charity.

    B) More importantly, the precise truth DOES MATTER. It is not just important to do the right thing, but to do it for the right reasons -- or else it WILL come back to bite you, eventually.

    The latter point is very deep and worthy of its own thread.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #6 on: September 30, 2023, 11:25:40 AM »
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  • And ... here we go.

    Bishop Williamson:
    Quote
    However, the acceptability of attending the New Mass has been supported in recent years by the allegation that there have been a number of Eucharistic miracles ...

    So we've shifted from the NOM can be valid to attending the NOM can be "acceptable."

    If you recall, when I argued that the devil can easily simulate such "miracles" (assuming they can't be written off as fraudulent), I speculated about WHY the devil WOULD simulate such "miracles", namely, to give people, including Traditional Catholics, the impression that God is not displeased with the NOM and that it's "acceptable" to assist at it.

    It's one thing to say that the NOM might be valid, and quite another thing to say that it's "acceptable" to attend it.  I TOLD you that these "miracles" could be construed or taken in a way that people might be persuaded that it's OK to assist at the NOM.  For the devil, it's MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

    Now, I don't know for sure that these are even legit.  What isn't covered by Bishop Williamson is that one Catholic scientist concluded that the red substance on one of the Polish "miraculous" hosts could very well be a kind of red mold, and that the female Catholic scientist who concluded that it was miraculous may have just been looking for it to be a miracle out of the gate and thus found what she wanted to find.  It's interesting that the two Polish events follow the same pattern, a host that was dropped, then placed into a cup of water to be dissolved, only for someone to find the red splotches at a later time.  Both in Poland.  Could there be something in the wheat or in the environment in Poland that's conducive to the growth of some kind of red mold?  But, even IF these can't be explained through natural causes, the devil can easily simulate them ... and for the reasons stated.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #7 on: September 30, 2023, 11:30:08 AM »
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  • https://catholiccandle.neocities.org/priests/williamson-bad-fruits-miracles
    Quote
    ...Bishop Williamson says that the supposed expert on whom he relies (Professor Maria Sobaniec-Lotowaska) can somehow tell that there is no possibility of human fabrication. Id. Convenient!

    In fact, there are other researchers who are skeptical about the alleged “miracle”. But Bishop Williamson does not tell his readers about them. For example, Professor Lech Chyczewski, one of Sobaniec-Lotowaska’s own colleagues at the same medical university in Bialystok, Poland, disagrees with her. He criticized the way his colleague (Sobaniec-Lotowaska) carried out her test on which Bishop Williamson relies. Id. Chyczewski added that Sobaniec-Lotowaska saw what she wanted to see and that she has an emotional approach to faith. Id.

    Another inconvenient point for those supporting the supposed Sokolka “miracle” is that Dr. Pawel Grzesiowskia (a biologist from Poland’s National Medical Institute) proposes a natural (bacterial) explanation for the “red discoloration” in the host. Id.

    We do not vouch for the truth of these contrary views of different medical researchers. We do not have enough information. But we see that, without telling his readers, Bishop Williamson cherry-picks only the “evidence” that fits the conclusion about which he tries to convince his readers. Or, if Bishop Williamson did not know about the other researchers’ contrary opinions, then he knows too little about the dispute and was rash to jump into the controversy at all.

    Quote
    A prudent Traditional Catholic would withhold judgment on any alleged miracles until after the Catholic Church thoroughly investigated—which could not happen presently without the hierarchy first returning to Catholic Tradition.

    There are many levels on which Bishop Williamson acts rashly concerning these false “miracles”. First, it is obvious that the devil greatly gains when people promote “miracles” which lend credence to the conciliar revolution, which is his work. It would be very easy for the devil to work these false “miracles”, through both natural and preternatural means.

    Further, besides the devil’s interest in promoting these “miracles”, it is natural for conciliar Catholics to want to believe that God is working in their revolutionary church. These conciliar Catholics should know by the natural law that they have a duty to be God-centered and might even naturally yearn for this. Yet they plainly belong to a man-centered (false) conciliar religion. It is only natural for conciliar Catholics to want to quiet the “little voice” inside themselves by latching onto these conciliar “miracles” which purport to “show” that God approves of their man-centered conciliar religion.

    Also, there are other conciliar Catholics who try to “canonize” the conciliar revolution by promoting conciliar “miracles” and “visions” (such as Medjugorje). A prudent Traditional Catholic would no more accept the conciliar church promoting “miracles” at the new mass than he would accept “miracles” attributed to so-called “saint” John Paul II.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #8 on: September 30, 2023, 11:35:23 AM »
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  • I, for one, could easily understand why God would work Eucharistic Miracles in a Novus Ordo context.

    A) I know we Trads like to throw the entire Conciliar Church in the trash can, along with everyone in it, but God isn't so lacking in compassion and charity.

    B) More importantly, the precise truth DOES MATTER. It is not just important to do the right thing, but to do it for the right reasons -- or else it WILL come back to bite you, eventually.

    The latter point is very deep and worthy of its own thread.

    Of course the truth matters, but apart from not citing some contrary opinions about the legitimacy of these miracles, Bishop Williamson does not consider even for a second that the devil could EASILY simulate such "miracles".  This is why the Church's attitude has always traditionally been one of skepticism, and that the first criterion applied by the Church is that of doctrinal orthodoxy.  Church knows that the devil can simulate such "miracles" in the interests of introducing errors.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #9 on: September 30, 2023, 11:37:58 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson does not consider even for a second that the devil could EASILY simulate such "miracles".  

    Gratuitous.  Of course he does.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #10 on: September 30, 2023, 11:39:24 AM »
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  • And ... here we go.

    Bishop Williamson:
    So we've shifted from the NOM can be valid to attending the NOM can be "acceptable."

    You might be shifting it, but he isn't.  He's talking about the opinion of others, not his own.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #11 on: September 30, 2023, 11:39:31 AM »
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  • I do believe that IF the hosts had been validly consecrated, however, that God would not permit the devil to tamper directly with the Blessed Sacrament.  So, if in fact the devil simulated these "miracles," this to me lends even greater credibility to the notion that they were not valid.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #12 on: September 30, 2023, 11:40:29 AM »
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  • Gratuitous.  Of course he does.

    Show me where, Sean.  He's repeatedly stated that their authenticity is certain based on "scientific evidence", never once having mentioned that the devil could conceivably simulate the "evidence".

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #13 on: September 30, 2023, 11:42:41 AM »
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  • It's one thing to say that the NOM might be valid, and quite another thing to say that it's "acceptable" to attend it.  I TOLD you that these "miracles" could be construed or taken in a way that people might be persuaded that it's OK to assist at the NOM.  For the devil, it's MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

    Loudestmouth:

    1) Please cite for me where +Williamson says that because he believes certain NOM Eucharistic miracles are legit, its ok to attend the NOM.

    2) Please cite for me an example of any trad on the planet who now attends the NOM because +Williamson allowed that said NOM Eucharistic miracles could be legit.

    You can demonstrate neither, and once again (and again, and again, and again), you are not living in the real world.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eleison Comments - Bad Shepherds (no. 846)
    « Reply #14 on: September 30, 2023, 11:44:40 AM »
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  • Show me where, Sean.  He's repeatedly stated that their authenticity is certain based on "scientific evidence", never once having mentioned that the devil could conceivably simulate the "evidence".

    Seriously?  You want the world to believe that thought has never crossed his mind?

    :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."